If You DO NOT Take Lessons, Why?

[LankyLefty]

Originally Posted by SoCal Blade

Try this for a good explanation of why instructors wont really help;

1. Get the Las Vegas phone book out and  call any pro Magician in there. Ask him how he does his most famous trick, Offer him 60 bucks for an hour of his undivided attention so you can learn his trick.....Go ahead, we'll wait......

Did he hang up on you?....Yeah, thought so.

Ben Hogan said this: "Golf cannot be taught, it can only be learned"

Unless youre a wunderkind young gun golfer that has a LOT of promise and not from this planet, a good instructor will not work with you for a percentage of winnings, so you'll end up having to pay the hourly rate or buy 3 get 1 free type deals... Break it down to financial motivations:  Be honest with yourself.

The better you get, the LESS money he gets, and you dont repeat as a customer.

Bottom line; Job Security

Disagree if you want, but youre only fooling yourselves

This might be the most ignorant statement Ive ever seen on this site...

So a golf instructor who makes his living teaching people, is not going to teach you so that he can keep his job???

His job is teaching, how is he going to keep his job by not doing it?

Were you drunk when you wrote this?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by SoCal Blade

Try this for a good explanation of why instructors wont really help;

1. Get the Las Vegas phone book out and  call any pro Magician in there. Ask him how he does his most famous trick, Offer him 60 bucks for an hour of his undivided attention so you can learn his trick.....Go ahead, we'll wait......

Did he hang up on you?....Yeah, thought so.

Ben Hogan said this: "Golf cannot be taught, it can only be learned"

Unless youre a wunderkind young gun golfer that has a LOT of promise and not from this planet, a good instructor will not work with you for a percentage of winnings, so you'll end up having to pay the hourly rate or buy 3 get 1 free type deals... Break it down to financial motivations:  Be honest with yourself.

The better you get, the LESS money he gets, and you dont repeat as a customer.

Bottom line; Job Security

Disagree if you want, but youre only fooling yourselves

If you stop to think about it, Hogan's phrase was basically saying that unless a golfer actually puts time and effort into learning what he's doing and practicing, no amount of teaching will ever help.

Pro's will teach students as quickly and efficiently as they can because they want word to get around and more students to book them up. If they're really good they'll have a backlog of lessons for months at a time and just as current students slow down lessons or stop them entirely they'll have new students coming in.

Also I think you'll find that 90% of students don't bother practicing in between. They book a lesson, get on well with it, finish up the bucket of balls they have for the lesson and then go home. Then two weeks later they get on the course, they can't play for toffee and then they go on a forum and complain about their instructor. If I'm not mistaken there was even a post on this forum where a guy was bitching and complaining about ALL teaching pro's because he'd hit a whopping 200 balls over the last 6 months and been out 4 times but not improved.

The general lessons process for a lot of people seems to be:

Play a bad round of golf > Take a lesson > Identify flaws > Learn solution to flaws and drills to ingrain solution > Hit the remainder of a bucket of balls > Wait 1-2 weeks, all the while telling yourself you'll practice the lesson stuff soon > Play a bad round of golf (repeat ad nauseum)

For me if I don't play for a week my swing gets worse. A single week.

In the vote above I said that I don't take lessons because I want to learn myself. The reason I want to learn myself is so that I can build a swing which I find comfortable and suitable for my body type rather than a "fits all" swing. By learning about all the individual parts of the swing, how they interplay and how my contact and ball flight is affected I can improve through learning rather than fixes to my swing.

I found that when taking lessons historically I've been taught to do or not do but not the reasoning behind it or I've been taught something which to me feels incorrect for my swing but which I've stuck with for a few weeks before thinking, "let me just try this" and getting an instant improvement with my own tweak.

[Mr. Desmond]

Why?

Because I'm still disseminating everything I was taught over the years.

When I started again in '95, during a return to the game,  I took lessons. I had some issues with the instructors (a method - this was Haney) regarding the backswing and the connection (I was not connected and they did not correct it); and did not give hints on correcting it -- said it did not matter.

I disagreed.

Went to another method instructor - (Hardy) - they didn't give ideas on correcting this basic flaw - I didn't realize how bad it was until I saw video.

Went to a TGM instructor -- he pointed it out - the simple fix - keep the left arm tight against the chest. Still, my takeaway was too armsy. But the TGM guy had some great points and I learned a lot.

Read the S&T; Book and saw Foley videos - one can take good from both.

I now have a more connected, tighter, less armsy, (more core-driven) takeaway with a straight left arm, and deep arms, and a right arm that bends nicely and a right elbow that points more downward at the top. More weight on the front foot and a left shoulder that goes down in the takeaway. And the hips! And stomping on that front foot... The only thing I keep from Haney is to keep my back to the ball as long as possible on the downswing, and swing slightly to right field.

In other words, I'm working on several items at once -- and it's not pretty all the time. So my swing is slower so I can sequence better. I have a tripod and a camera.

When I stop thinking so much, I'll see my TGM guy again, or if I get a windfall, I'll go to a S&T; or Evolution Clinic.

[MrFreeze]

Originally Posted by mikelegacy

The less people improve, the less customers he gets. Think about it. If you hated your lessons and didn't learn anything, youre not going to tell your friends to go there. It just doesn't work that way. They try and be the best teachers out there because a teacher who has a track record of Improving people's scores is going to get more customers than someone who doesn't.

In theory that is exactly what it should be. I am an instructor, high school, and have a good deal of "good will" as many kids line up for my classes. This is because I teach them the real stuff and help them to be better at music.

Having said that I went to Haggin Oaks, no slam on any of them except this one teacher, to purchase irons. I bought the A7's from Adams. With the purchase they gave me the fitting for them. So I toddled over and met this "golf pro" and told him what the deal was. He said ok. He asked me if I had warmed up. No. Harrumph. Well take a minute. ... So I stretched a bit, swung the club a bit. He crankily got me a couple of balls. I hit them, I get nervous - still - when a pro watches me, and shanked the first two. Trying to get my head squared away to hit my normal shot. I hear him muttering little nasties under his breath at me (I have great hearing...music teacher). So I finally get my shot working (3 shots later) and was jacking it straight and fairly long. His comment was...

"you are not going to hit it better with any adjustment. you need lessons. you have an outside-in swing and ..." Ok. on the surface that sounds normal. But the fact that he stopped watching after the 3rd shot concerned me. I went to the golf club adjustment guy. He set them all to stock, as they were all over the place (lie was). I then chatted with the head pro there and at a couple of other places, not changing my swing at all, and all of them said that I was a naturally great ball striker. I needed time to figure things out, but a great ball striker.

After the fiasco of the fitting, he didn't get paid for it, I went to the range to hit balls. I wanted to try the new lie adjustments. I found that I hit the snot out of them. Great improvement. I saw that  "pro" working with a couple that was very old. Not bashing them. They were really wanting to learn. He treated them badly as well.

So, the thing is. We are all people. We all have our own place in the world. His place needs to be adjusted because the customer service of education seems to have passed him by.

I would take lessons, unless it was that guy.

Just my thoughts

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by SoCal Blade

Try this for a good explanation of why instructors wont really help;

1. Get the Las Vegas phone book out and  call any pro Magician in there. Ask him how he does his most famous trick, Offer him 60 bucks for an hour of his undivided attention so you can learn his trick.....Go ahead, we'll wait......

Did he hang up on you?....Yeah, thought so.

Ben Hogan said this: "Golf cannot be taught, it can only be learned"

Unless youre a wunderkind young gun golfer that has a LOT of promise and not from this planet, a good instructor will not work with you for a percentage of winnings, so you'll end up having to pay the hourly rate or buy 3 get 1 free type deals... Break it down to financial motivations:  Be honest with yourself.

The better you get, the LESS money he gets, and you dont repeat as a customer.

Bottom line; Job Security

Disagree if you want, but youre only fooling yourselves

What a wonderful outlook on life. Not too much of a cynic are you?  And you couldn't be more wrong.

Failure to help your student just gets you a bad reputation, and as word gets around, fewer students.  I'm certainly not returning to a teacher who isn't helping me, and nobody I know would do so.

[sean_miller]

The magician analogy doesn't work for me. If someone seeks information beyond their playing ability or arrives at the lesson ready to debate the instructor because they've done "their homework" then some instructors might tell them to F off, just not in so many words. Some instructors should possibly retire (example a couple posts above).

I've only taken lessons from one person (and a solid gold tip about my grip and alignment from a CPGA playing partner in about '87) and I'd recommend him to anyone. If anyone's in Central Alberta and looking for a solid instuctor, send me a PM. Could he have been faster to get me the lesson vids? Sure. Was I satisfied that he met my expectations? Oh yeah, but maybe it's because I met his. I worked on exactly what he showed me (just a couple tweaks - timing and rotation).

Originally Posted by mikelegacy

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCal Blade

Try this for a good explanation of why instructors wont really help;

1. Get the Las Vegas phone book out and  call any pro Magician in there. Ask him how he does his most famous trick, Offer him 60 bucks for an hour of his undivided attention so you can learn his trick.....Go ahead, we'll wait......

Did he hang up on you?....Yeah, thought so.

Ben Hogan said this: "Golf cannot be taught, it can only be learned"

Unless youre a wunderkind young gun golfer that has a LOT of promise and not from this planet, a good instructor will not work with you for a percentage of winnings, so you'll end up having to pay the hourly rate or buy 3 get 1 free type deals... Break it down to financial motivations:  Be honest with yourself.

The better you get, the LESS money he gets, and you dont repeat as a customer.

Bottom line; Job Security

Disagree if you want, but youre only fooling yourselves

The less people improve, the less customers he gets. Think about it. If you hated your lessons and didn't learn anything, youre not going to tell your friends to go there. It just doesn't work that way. They try and be the best teachers out there because a teacher who has a track record of Improving people's scores is going to get more customers than someone who doesn't.

[RayG]

I was fortunate to be "a natural". I picked up a 7 iron when I was 12 at the range with my Dad. A few basic tips from him (probably the worst one to give them, but the basics are the basics), and hit my first shot about 135 straight down the middle. Then repeated it a few times. I was kind of hooked. Dad kept me at the range for that year going through all the clubs until I was reasonably proficient to go out with him the following year. Only lessons were a set of Junior Clinics at the local Muni. An hour of instruction and practice, then a few holes with an adult 'instructor' in the group to teach rules and etiquette.I beat him that first time out on a full course and he never did beat me after that. Never shot over 100 either, so I guess I was spoiled there too- my first goal was breaking 90. Did that the next year. Even with the Northwestern "Chi-Chi Rodriquez" forged starter set, my game steadily improved using the same swing with little tweaks learned from those Illustrated Jack Nicklaus paperback books. My swing was like a combo of Fred Couples and Ernie Els; relaxed and loose. That served me well for quite a long time until I took advantage of a promotion for a free 1/2 hr "touch up" with an instructor at a local range. I had a SLIGHT issue of pulling the shorter irons from the 6 iron in- not a lot, but enough to be a bother if the pin was on the left side. It wasn't all the time, so I figured it was an alignment or swing path issue and was looking for a second opinion on what I was thinking. I CLEARLY explained I was happy with my existing game (by now I was maybe a 6 or 7 hdcp), and was just having that one issue. I didn't need a rebuild or overhaul. He said fine, and proceeded to put a bucket of balls down and made me hit a 5 iron... hit it straight and true to 185, several times in a row. "I don't see a problem" well, duh... it's the 6 iron and in that 's the issue. I hit a few 8 irons and sure enough there was a slight pull- about 10-15 yds left of the 140 target. He adjusted my grip and said hit 20-30 with it and he'll be right back. I did and felt very uncomfortable, but I kept at it. By the last few they WERE going a bit straighter but shorter. I figured okay maybe it will just take a few rounds getting the memory in my hands to kick in and the distance will return... I'm STILL waiting for that to happen- that was over 10 years ago. Totally farked up the REST of my game for years. Somewhere in there I completely lost that "natural" swing feel I was gifted with because I was thinking about it. Drives rarely went as long or as straight with the slight draw I had developed. 2 yrs later I was back to a 13 and STILL pulling the short irons. While every once in a while, the old me shows up for a round or two, I'll say something like- "okay, now I think I've got it...", and poof it's gone. Maybe I had developed bad habits compared to the technical, perfect swing they teach today, but they were MY bad habits and they worked for me. They seemed to have been jealous that I would even consider a second opinion and decided to run away and hide. Every so often they tease me me by showing up and then just hide again. I would now like to publicly apologize to my bad habits and ask that they come back so we can have some fun together. I promise to never doubt them again.

[Topper]

I picked 1 and 3.

I think lessons require an instructor able to apply swing fundamental to each student given their natural tendencies, limitations, and abilities.  I have encountered a number of PGA professionals who offer golf lessons and may themselves be great golfers, but really don't have a strong interest in teaching.  It either comes across almost as a "necessary evil" of his/her responsibilities as a club pro or assistant pro OR as a fun social hour where they can get out of the pro shop.  Lots of talking and fun with a few random instruction-related comments, but little actual teaching.

Lessons cost 60-100 per hour...sometimes more.  Lessons need to be repeated at regular intervals to see if instructions are being integrated properly during practice sessions between lessons.  At 60-100 per hour, this begins to add up quickly through the golf season.  It's just another barrier to keep more people playing the game so they will continue to pay greens fees and buy golf equipment.  This is an unfortunate conundrum in an industry which (in the U.S.) is stagnant at best or (according to some) in a state of declining participation.

However, I will admit that I'm am looking at Evolvr as an option...especially after two more weekends of terrible golf.  It seems like a reasonable compromise.  But if I have to watch comparisons to Dustin Justin's (or similar tour professional) golf swing, I'll probably lose my patience.  Show me the guy who is around 50, about 275 pounds (plus or minus), over 6' tall, and has a few degenerated discs in the lumbar section of his back.  I'd be interested in seeing how that guy hits the ball consistently with swing movements that I have at least a remote chance of being able to copy.

[Precis1on]

I'm disappointed to say that lessons are too expensive for me to take, but I've always enjoyed figuring things out by myself. Maybe when I get stuck or feel like my swing maybe needs 1-2 adjustments, I'll take a lesson.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by RayG

Totally farked up the REST of my game for years. Somewhere in there I completely lost that "natural" swing feel I was gifted with because I was thinking about it. Drives rarely went as long or as straight with the slight draw I had developed. 2 yrs later I was back to a 13 and STILL pulling the short irons. While every once in a while, the old me shows up for a round or two, I'll say something like- "okay, now I think I've got it...", and poof it's gone.

Maybe I had developed bad habits compared to the technical, perfect swing they teach today, but they were MY bad habits and they worked for me. They seemed to have been jealous that I would even consider a second opinion and decided to run away and hide. Every so often they tease me me by showing up and then just hide again. I would now like to publicly apologize to my bad habits and ask that they come back so we can have some fun together. I promise to never doubt them again.

Probably just needed a lie angle adjustment on the irons.... 6i on in....

[The Tin Man]

Before lesson #1: I had a fast, natural swing. I put all my weight on my back foot and scooped the ball with my wrists as fast as possible.  I was "scoring" 150+.

After lesson #1 (years ago from the guy handing out balls at the range)  I was trying to break 100.  Shaving off 50 strokes in the beginning was easy, a few simple tips on holding the club and weight transfer. For a beginner to struggle alone is pointless. (My friends were useless - all they did was scream "keep your head down".)

When I play with somebody who bowls, scoops, banana slices I have to bite my tongue to keep from pointing to the range and saying. "There a nice lady over there who will fix you up for $60"

[RayG]

Probably just needed a lie angle adjustment on the irons.... 6i on in....

Sheesh, NOW you tell me... ;-) If he had said that, I would have no problem getting that taken care of...

[WUTiger]

At the college where I teach, there's a guy on the golf team who is self-taught.  He was a starter for our college team (Div. III) by his junior year.

Said he started playing golf on his own at the end of high school, and got some tips from the other college golfers. I don't think he's pro material, but he regularly shot in the mid-70s his senior year.

Has an excellent short game, especially partial wedges. But, he says he can't quite shoot under par. Says he has one or two wild shots a side which get him into trouble.

But, for every person who's fairly successful as a self-taught golfer, there's two dozen self-taught people who struggle from day 1. I was self-taught for my first 10 years. But, I spent the next 10 years trying to undo all the bad habits from my first experiments.

As I tell everyone - start with some lessons or at least a golf clinic, and PRACTICE what you learned so you can develop a swing. I'm a little lucky - once I figured out what I wanted in a golf pro, I was usually able to find a good one most everywhere I lived.

[te3point5]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

PRACTICE what you learned so you can develop a swing.

This is actually my problem. I don't take lessons because I simply don't have time to practice what I learned, so it'd be useless to me. I guess until I have more time to devote to practicing and taking lessons, I'll have to be happy with where I am.

[x129]

You assumption that people go back to instructors that don't help them is flawed.  I took a couple lessons with a guy and for whatever reason we didn't click. Move to the next guy and after a couple lessons I could see improvement. Guess who I bought my next 4 pack from.  The golf game is complicated enough (and even the best need refreshers) that if you can actually get people to improve, they will come back to you for years.,  Despite what informercials push, there are no tricks to golf. There are some sound fundamentals and then a ton of work.

Originally Posted by SoCal Blade

Try this for a good explanation of why instructors wont really help;

1. Get the Las Vegas phone book out and  call any pro Magician in there. Ask him how he does his most famous trick, Offer him 60 bucks for an hour of his undivided attention so you can learn his trick.....Go ahead, we'll wait......

Did he hang up on you?....Yeah, thought so.

Ben Hogan said this: "Golf cannot be taught, it can only be learned"

Unless youre a wunderkind young gun golfer that has a LOT of promise and not from this planet, a good instructor will not work with you for a percentage of winnings, so you'll end up having to pay the hourly rate or buy 3 get 1 free type deals... Break it down to financial motivations:  Be honest with yourself.

The better you get, the LESS money he gets, and you dont repeat as a customer.

Bottom line; Job Security

Disagree if you want, but youre only fooling yourselves

[Chief Broom]

I picked the "no good instructors" option but that's not entirely true.  I'm probably a pretty tough student to teach.  Meaning I've been playing golf for 30 years without instruction, so my faults are ingrained.  The instructor who can help me is the one who is going to be able to win me over with their ability to convince me that they know what they are doing by helping me with real measurable progress.  Quick fixes aren't going to do it because my natural swing pattern is going to always show back up.  I can compensate for these faults, so minor adjustments will probably end up hurting me in the long run as my natural swing and natural accomodations creep back int my swing.  What this means is that I'm pretty jaded when it comes to lessons.  In the last 3 years I took 2 sections of lessons.  The first were with a local driving range pro who left me so unimpressed after 2 lessons that even though I'd paid for 3 more I didn't bother showing back up or wasting my time rescheduling.  About a year later I took a 5 lessons with a local club's pro (PGA asst. pro).  Those lessons were of some benefit, but overall I came out of them playing the same game I went in with, so I wasn't impressed with that experience either.  About a year after that I took one lesson at another local club that has a teaching academy.  That PGA pro took video and is competent, but again I came away from the experience having made no significant changes.  What I need to do is either go back to that academy or find another pro (I've got one in mind who I've been keeping an eye on) and approach them with a detailed summery of where I think my game is and what specifically I'd like to get out of lessons.  That way the pro can either respond to me in a fashion that I'm impressed with or I can pass them by as I look for a pro who can offer me a detailed plan of action to address my needs.

[Topper]

Originally Posted by SoCal Blade

Ben Hogan said this: "Golf cannot be taught, it can only be learned"

I can see Mr. Hogan's point although it may not be the interpretation that he was intending.

There is a certain amount of self-selection in all sports.  Those individuals with the inherent ability (physiological and psychological) for a particular sport will tend to learn the sport more quickly and become more proficient than the average person.  I think this makes sense to most people.

In my opinion, golf has a very difficult combination of hand-eye coordination, proprioception (movement awareness), balance, flexibility, and concentration that prevents most people from ever becoming proficient regardless of equipment purchased, lessons taken, or the amount of time practicing.  Obviously, the definition of "proficient" is important.  If "proficient" simply means being able to make any kind of ball contact and navigate a course without excessively impacting pace of play and having to pickup on holes, then more people can reach that level of proficiency.  If "proficient" means being a bogey golfer, then the portion of the population is much, much smaller.  I doubt many would define the former as being "proficient," but I was just making a point that it will ultimately vary between individuals.

Most people (I include myself here) have to be satisfied with making the most of their God-given abilities (or genetics) and realize that they will never become proficient golfers.  In the end, most of us without inherent golfing ability will have to embrace the concept that a "bad day of golf is better than a good day of work" and enjoy golf for other benefits not directly related to our skill (or lack thereof).

[Wallstreet]

I have always wanted to figure things out for myself.  I have never taken a true lesson.  I played golf in high school so I guess I got some instruction from our coach.  I started by trying to imitate Tiger Wood's swing when I first started playing, since at the time a lot of people say that was a close to "perfect" swing.

But to the guy who said instructors don't teach you how to be good so that you keep coming back???? really?  If i were to take lessons and didnt see any improvement in a period of time....i would never see that pro again.  The thing with golf is, you can be the greatest instructor ever, but that doesnt mean your student will become the greatest golfer they will ever be.  There are always things to learn about golf.  Why do you think PGA pro's have golf coaches????  Because there is always something to work on and no one has ever and will ever be a perfect golfer.