14 Clubs

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

But what difference does it actually make in the game? Are they worried the excess weight will kill a caddie? Whats the POINT of the limit?

28 clubs wont win me any more games or give me any advantage over 14 clubs.

What it may do is make my game worse if I have to lug that bag myself or screw with my mental game if I have too many options to think consider when pulling a club.

I dont see why someone needs 50 clubs, but if he wanted I just dont see how it affects anyone but the poor  caddy.

The point is that the ruling bodies feel that there needs to be some skill involved in actually making shots, not just picking your 22 iron and making the same swing as you do with your driver.  Even 14 clubs limits the amount of creativity required, but that's where they decided to cut it off, so that's where it is.

If you want to actually start to learn how to play golf, try a few rounds with just 6 or 7 clubs in your bag (talk your buddies into a mini competition using any 7 clubs they want to choose - it makes for a really fun round).  It takes that sort of limitation to really start to learn how a club works with something other than a full swing.  You learn to half swing, 3/4 swing, play the ball forward or back to change distance and trajectory.  It gives you tools to use in regular rounds when you get into situations where a full shot is not feasible, such as working out from under trees, or lofting an 8I or 9I over a tree while still having enough club to reach the target, instead of just using a SW and accepting the fact that you will come up short.  There is way more to the game of golf than just pick a club and whack the ball.

Scrambling is an art, and part of the training for it is just learning how to plan for and execute non-standard shots.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Informative thread.

Enough negative comments to make me rethink buying a chipper.

I don't know if it was mentioned in that thread or not, but a 2 sided chipper is also against those rules you don't seem to care about.

[zeg]

I'd also add that the 14-club rule is probably far more important for pros and elite amateurs than it is for mid-to-high handicappers.  Most of us are probably wild enough we could drop every other iron without significantly affecting our scores---the precision with any given club just isn't there.  For the guys on tour, where distance control is plus or minus a couple feet, being able to avoid hard or soft swings in favor of a stock swing with a 'tween iron could be a significant benefit.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

The extra option reasoning doesnt make a whole lot of sense.

I have a set of irons in my bag and some woods. Im set up with those clubs to make every shot from the furthest I can hit to the closest and every distance in between.

I'm going to carry wedges separated by two degrees, from 48 to 64. So I'll have 48, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 62, 64.

Oh, and I don't know what kind of turf and sand conditions I'll encounter, so I'll just carry four different wedges of each loft, each with a different amount of bounce and a different grind.

And if I'm not feeling good, maybe I should pack some game-improvement irons too. Maybe some super game improvement irons too. And goodness knows what driver I'll hit well. I should just bring all twelve that I own. Same goes with putters - I should bring all 14 of those. One of them is good for putts from 10-13 feet. I'll use others for various distances. And the Cameron is good for the short left-to-right putts.

Sigh.

Look, 14 is the number they chose.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by iacas

Sigh.

Look, 14 is the number they chose.

I'd add that the fact that the number seems large enough to be pointless to G-f-F is an indication that they picked a reasonable number.  It's finite, but more than adequate.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The point is that the ruling bodies feel that there needs to be some skill involved in actually making shots, not just picking your 22 iron and making the same swing as you do with your driver.  Even 14 clubs limits the amount of creativity required, but that's where they decided to cut it off, so that's where it is.

If you want to actually start to learn how to play golf, try a few rounds with just 6 or 7 clubs in your bag (talk your buddies into a mini competition using any 7 clubs they want to choose - it makes for a really fun round).  It takes that sort of limitation to really start to learn how a club works with something other than a full swing.  You learn to half swing, 3/4 swing, play the ball forward or back to change distance and trajectory.  It gives you tools to use in regular rounds when you get into situations where a full shot is not feasible, such as working out from under trees, or lofting an 8I or 9I over a tree while still having enough club to reach the target, instead of just using a SW and accepting the fact that you will come up short.  There is way more to the game of golf than just pick a club and whack the ball.

Scrambling is an art, and part of the training for it is just learning how to plan for and execute non-standard shots.

A guy I used to work with played whole rounds with a 7 iron and a putter.

Im sure it can be done, I just am not sure that its a game play/advantage reason that they picked 14 but more just that thats the number they decided on instead.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by zeg

I'd add that the fact that the number seems large enough to be pointless to G-f-F is an indication that they picked a reasonable number.  It's finite, but more than adequate.

Id certainly hope this isnt going to start getting personal.

Nothing GfF has done has any bearing on the 14 club limit.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm going to carry wedges separated by two degrees, from 48 to 64. So I'll have 48, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 62, 64.

Oh, and I don't know what kind of turf and sand conditions I'll encounter, so I'll just carry four different wedges of each loft, each with a different amount of bounce and a different grind.

And if I'm not feeling good, maybe I should pack some game-improvement irons too. Maybe some super game improvement irons too. And goodness knows what driver I'll hit well. I should just bring all twelve that I own. Same goes with putters - I should bring all 14 of those. One of them is good for putts from 10-13 feet. I'll use others for various distances. And the Cameron is good for the short left-to-right putts.

Have at it.

Bring a pickup truck full of clubs if youd like. It wont give you any advantage over my 15 clubs....or 14.....or 8 of my choosing.

If you win, and most likely you will, it will be your SKILL that wins, not how many clubs you didnt bring along.

Quote:

Sigh.

Look, 14 is the number they chose.

Now THAT is a reasonable answer.

They thought about it and decided 14 was enough for whatever reason because that 15th club certainly wasnt going to be a gamebreaker. If it were the player would have ditched some other club for it to fit it into the 14.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Bring a pickup truck full of clubs if youd like. It wont give you any advantage over my 15 clubs....or 14.....or 8 of my choosing.

Yes, it would give me an advantage. More clubs would give any reasonably skilled player an advantage. That's why there's a rule limiting the number to 14.

[B-Con]

Have at it. Bring a pickup truck full of clubs if youd like. It wont give you any advantage over my 15 clubs....or 14.....or 8 of my choosing. If you win, and most likely you will, it will be your SKILL that wins, not how many clubs you didnt bring along.

The thing, though, is that these kinds of subtle equipment changes [i]can[/i] give ultra-skilled players an an advantage because they know how to use them. Carrying 20 wedges of varying lofts and grinds wouldn't really give me an advantage over the 3 I carry now (well, the PW isn't really a wedge, so make that 2), but for iacas it would. The key problem is that you're assuming similar clubs are going to perform equivalently, thereby placing a cap on the number of useful clubs to carry as, basically, the number of types of clubs that exist. Because what advantage is there to carry two clubs that perform the same, right? But the better the player, in general, the more "types of clubs" there are. They care about the details, and for them there may be 10 types of wedges they could carry, whereas, say, I only see about 4. They still wouldn't benefit from carrying similarly performing clubs (how could carrying the exact same club twice help?), but they see the world as consisting of 30 different clubs instead of, say 15. They would be at a disadvantage to not have all 30 available for them. Probably a relatively small disadvantage, but if they could bring 30 clubs for free they probably would -- especially if there's money on the line. (Can you imagine what the pros would do? They'd try to carry every single type of club under the sun.) Even if it was only one stroke every other round, that's two strokes per modern tournament and pros would do almost anything to shave 2 strokes a tournament, even if they had to bring 4 caddies. [quote name="Golfs-for-Fun" url="/t/53038/14-clubs/36#post_660683"]Now THAT is a reasonable answer. They thought about it and decided 14 was enough for whatever reason because that 15th club certainly wasnt going to be a gamebreaker. If it were the player would have ditched some other club for it to fit it into the 14.[/quote] As I recall, 14 was somewhat arbitrary (ie, I don't think it stood apart from 13 or 15 as clearly the right number). As was the size of the hole. As was the number of holes on the golf course. Some of us don't like seemingly arbitrary numbers, but golf is full of them. Maybe some of them could have had a bit more thought put into them, but the result probably wouldn't be much different, so it doesn't really matter.

[WWBDD]

Quote:

If you want to actually start to learn how to play golf, try a few rounds with just 6 or 7 clubs in your bag ...

Remember when it was common to only have odd numbered irons?

[WWBDD]

Quote:

Nice to have something that can be hit right or left handed llike that.

If you've got the room in your bag, pick up a left handed 7 iron.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Id certainly hope this isnt going to start getting personal.

Nothing GfF has done has any bearing on the 14 club limit.

Discussions are inherently personal, but there's nothing even approaching a personal attack in there.

Your position simply makes no sense: you're arguing that because having more clubs would not be an advantage, the rule is somehow flawed.  I don't get it.  As a matter of keeping behavior reasonable, a line was drawn, and it was drawn at 14.  If it was 15, someone would ask why it's not 16; if 16, why not 17; etc...

[Kobey]

I think the rule was enacted by the caddies union.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

If the 15th club is a bottle of scotch, it's ok.

lol Someone pointed out the flask in my ball pocket before and said it was a 2 stroke penalty for performance enhancing liquids. I asked how it was performance enhancing and he replied "Because you won't give a damn when you hit the pond and it takes away the whole fun of the game, the mind-F that is golf!". Leave it to the Seniors to come up with this stuff lol

[Golfingdad]

Didn't want to bother with a whole new thread for my silly question, but I am curious.  I played in a tournament the other day (charity scramble, so not a REAL tournament, just for fun) and I noticed a guy there with what looked like a club in his bag upside down and it turned out to be an extra shaft for his R11.

Is that legal?  (I didn't count them, but for the sake of my question, let's assume that he had 14 actual clubs in his bag)

Obviously, you cannot adjust those drivers during a round, so it's pretty much taken care of at that point.  Also, other than the fact that it has a grip, it's no more a useful golf club than the alignment sticks in my bag.  But there are some pretty intricate, and sometimes tricky, rules out there, so I just thought I'd ask.

Thanks!

[newtogolf]

I'm fairly certain if he broke his driver shaft in the course of making a golf swing (not hitting a tree or the ground out of frustration) he'd be able to replace it mid-round.  One guy in my club carries an extra shaft when he plays other courses if he doesn't know the setup, one shaft is for distance, the other is shorter to give him more control on tight fairways.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Didn't want to bother with a whole new thread for my silly question, but I am curious.  I played in a tournament the other day (charity scramble, so not a REAL tournament, just for fun) and I noticed a guy there with what looked like a club in his bag upside down and it turned out to be an extra shaft for his R11.

Is that legal?  (I didn't count them, but for the sake of my question, let's assume that he had 14 actual clubs in his bag)

Obviously, you cannot adjust those drivers during a round, so it's pretty much taken care of at that point.  Also, other than the fact that it has a grip, it's no more a useful golf club than the alignment sticks in my bag.  But there are some pretty intricate, and sometimes tricky, rules out there, so I just thought I'd ask.

Thanks!

[Dormie1360]

A shaft is not a club.  No problem....it does not count towards the 14.  The player could not replace or change a shaft during the round unless a club was damaged during the course of play and was "unfit" for play.  In other words it's a replacement and not a repair.

4-3/2

Meaning of "Repair"

Q. During a round, a player may repair a club damaged in the normal course of play, or he may have it repaired by someone else. What does the term "repair" mean within the context of Rule 4-3a(ii) ?

A. The term "repair" in Rule 4-3a(ii) means to restore the club, as nearly as possible, to its condition prior to the incident that caused the damage. In doing so, the player is limited to the grip, shaft and club head used to comprise the club at the beginning of the stipulated round or, in the case of a club later added, when the club was selected for play.

When a club is damaged to the extent that the grip, shaft or club head has to be changed, this change exceeds what is meant by the term "repair." Such action constitutes replacement and is only permitted if the club was "unfit for play" - see Rule 4-3a(iii) . (Revised)

4-4a/15

Assembly of Club Components During Stipulated Round

Q. Rules 4-3a (iii) and 4-4a provide that the replacement or addition of a club must not be made by assembling components carried by or for the player during the stipulated round. What is the ruling in the following situations:

1. During a stipulated round, a player carries a clubhead and a shaft (i.e., components) that are capable of being assembled into a club, but he does not assemble the components?

2. During the stipulated round, components from the clubhouse are assembled off the course and then brought to the player, who uses the assembled club as a replacement for a club that has been damaged in the normal course of play or as an additional club when the player started with fewer than 14 clubs?

3. During the stipulated round, components brought to the player from the clubhouse are assembled on the course, and the assembled club is used as a replacement for a club that has been damaged in the normal course of play or as an additional club when the player started with fewer than 14 clubs?

A. 1. A separate clubhead and shaft do not constitute a club. Therefore, the separate clubhead and shaft do not count towards the number of clubs the player may carry under Rule 4-4a . However, regardless of the number of clubs carried, it is not permissible to assemble a clubhead and shaft carried by or for the player during the stipulated round. Consequently, if the player did replace or add a club by assembling components carried by or for him during the round, the player would be penalized under Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4a , as applicable

.

2. As the components were not carried by or for the player on the course (i.e., the components were located and assembled off the course), there is no penalty under Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4a .

3. Provided the components were not being carried by or for the player on the course at the time that the replacement club or additional club was requested by the player, there is no penalty under Rule 4-3a (iii) or Rule 4-4a . (Revised)