Who's going to win the Australian Open?

[Lofty Lefty]

Oh. by the way guys, congratulations to Greg Chalmers for winning the Aussie Open!!!

67-72-67-69 is a pretty damn good week of golf.

Good to see Nick O'Hern back contending after 2 knee ops as well.

An honourable mention goes to my teacher (well, I got a few lessons from him a couple years ago) Jason Norris who made the cut and finished T58.

[Jmdmbike]

Great to see Tiger competitive. Although he didn't win, it was a shot in the arm that golf needed. Too many robots and non-personalities out there - very boring. Same goes for Bubba and Sergio. Love to see them do well - they are interesting and fun to watch.

[makaveli]

I just don't get your point... you are comparing percentages of cuts made even if Tiger barely played this year?!? why do you think Tiger was a good pick?!? And what does the last phrase has to do with all this?!?

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

That's exactly why Tiger was a good pick- most guys have to have their A game to contend while Tiger dominates when he has his A game and can contend with his B game.  As "bad" as Tiger has played the last 2 years, he still only missed 3 cuts, was in the top 10 four times in 21 events and top 25 almost half the time.  Not great numbers for Tiger, but compared to Bill Haas's last 21 events, Tiger made a higher % of cuts and had a higher % of Top 25s.  Same thing when you compare him to Keegan Bradley (with Tiger having as many Top 10s in his last 21 events as Bradley has LIFETIME).

You don't win 14 majors and consistently contend as often as Tiger has just with luck.

[MEfree]

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

Me on the other side think Mr. Couples is pretty lucky Tiger (sort of) found his game just before the President Cup! :D

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

I just don't get your point... you are comparing percentages of cuts made even if Tiger barely played this year?!? why do you think Tiger was a good pick?!? And what does the last phrase has to do with all this?!?

Yes, the fact that he had only 21 PGA starts the last 2 years is why I used % to show that when he did play, he did decently compared to the other options Couples had.

I think Tiger was a good pick because he has been consistently the best golfer in the world for over 10 years and is able to be competitive with other Pros A game even when he is not playing his best.  Tiger is the complete opposite of a guy like John Daly in that he never gave up, even when he is not in contention.  I think a lot of other pros either a) give up to an extent (even if it does not involve walking off the course) and/or b) don't have the ability to stay in contention when they don't have their A game.  In the President's Cup (and Ryder Cup) format, I would much rather have a guy who is consistently good than a guy who can win once or twice but misses a bunch of cuts because of inconsistency.  While Woods's overall Presidents/Ryder Cup record is not as good as I would expect, he is 6-3-1 in singles and has had success in other match play formats.

You implied that it was pure luck that Tiger happened to find his game...my last phrase was meant to indicate that I think there was more than just luck involved.  Tiger takes a lot of pride in his golf game and his determination to never give up.  While i don't have any first hand knowledge, I would be very surprised if Tiger wasn't giving a 100% effort to validate Couple's pick.

Who would you have picked ahead of Tiger?

[makaveli]

I think that if a guy named Keenan stays at home watching the President Cup on tv there is something wrong... imho Bradley deserves that spot, no matter if Tiger was the best player on Earth till 2009, Couples should have given that spot to the Pga Champ, full stop!

Tiger played 2 full tournaments since the Masters and you wanna compare him to regular Tour guys?!

And why are you comparing it to John Daly?!?!? Nearly everyone is better than Daly nowadays! What this comparison has to do with all this?!?

And by the way, yes I think Couples is pretty lucky cause letting home the 2011 PGA Champ and having at the President Cup a Tiger playing like in the PGA Champ welll... that would be pretty lame...

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Yes, the fact that he had only 21 PGA starts the last 2 years is why I used % to show that when he did play, he did decently compared to the other options Couples had.

I think Tiger was a good pick because he has been consistently the best golfer in the world for over 10 years and is able to be competitive with other Pros A game even when he is not playing his best.  Tiger is the complete opposite of a guy like John Daly in that he never gave up, even when he is not in contention.  I think a lot of other pros either a) give up to an extent (even if it does not involve walking off the course) and/or b) don't have the ability to stay in contention when they don't have their A game.  In the President's Cup (and Ryder Cup) format, I would much rather have a guy who is consistently good than a guy who can win once or twice but misses a bunch of cuts because of inconsistency.  While Woods's overall Presidents/Ryder Cup record is not as good as I would expect, he is 6-3-1 in singles and has had success in other match play formats.

You implied that it was pure luck that Tiger happened to find his game...my last phrase was meant to indicate that I think there was more than just luck involved.  Tiger takes a lot of pride in his golf game and his determination to never give up.  While i don't have any first hand knowledge, I would be very surprised if Tiger wasn't giving a 100% effort to validate Couple's pick.

Who would you have picked ahead of Tiger?

[iacas]

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

I think that if a guy named Keenan stays at home watching the President Cup on tv there is something wrong... imho Bradley deserves that spot, no matter if Tiger was the best player on Earth till 2009, Couples should have given that spot to the Pga Champ, full stop!

Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't buy it. First of all, Tiger did fine in the Ryder Cup last year. His game was "bad" for him then, too.

Who's Keenan? If you mean Keegan Bradley, look at his missed cut totals. He's either hot or not. He's unreliable. Maybe Freddie didn't want that.

Keegan vs. Haas was a tough choice. Keegan vs. a Tiger Woods who wants to play and says his game will be in reasonable shape by mid-November? No choice at all. Not even close, IMHO.

Not to mention that Tiger is still the only guy who moves the needle.

[makaveli]

Sure, you would have chosen Tiger, while I would have chosen Keegan (I always confuse his name), thank god we don't have the same opinions, I like to discuss! ;)

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't buy it. First of all, Tiger did fine in the Ryder Cup last year. His game was "bad" for him then, too.

Who's Keenan? If you mean Keegan Bradley, look at his missed cut totals. He's either hot or not. He's unreliable. Maybe Freddie didn't want that.

Keegan vs. Haas was a tough choice. Keegan vs. a Tiger Woods who wants to play and says his game will be in reasonable shape by mid-November? No choice at all. Not even close, IMHO.

Not to mention that Tiger is still the only guy who moves the needle.

[MEfree]

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't buy it. First of all, Tiger did fine in the Ryder Cup last year. His game was "bad" for him then, too.

Who's Keenan? If you mean Keegan Bradley, look at his missed cut totals. He's either hot or not. He's unreliable. Maybe Freddie didn't want that.

Keegan vs. Haas was a tough choice. Keegan vs. a Tiger Woods who wants to play and says his game will be in reasonable shape by mid-November? No choice at all. Not even close, IMHO.

Not to mention that Tiger is still the only guy who moves the needle.

The bettors agree with you- on betfair, Tiger is the favorite to be overall points leader (and win the money title next year).  Keegan had a great Rookie year, but still only has 4 PGA Tour Top 10s (I think this is the same as Tiger in his last 21 events during his slump/injury.

[iacas]

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

The bettors agree with you- on betfair, Tiger is the favorite to be overall points leader (and win the money title next year).  Keegan had a great Rookie year, but still only has 4 PGA Tour Top 10s (I think this is the same as Tiger in his last 21 events during his slump/injury.

Good point.

Basically, you could put it this way: even in 2011 Tiger's average performance is better than Keegan's average performance.

Put it another way: if Jason Dufner hadn't helped gift Keegan a major, and had won it himself, would we want Jason Dufner on the team instead of Tiger Woods?

[colin007]

god, i wish tiger would get that driver sorted out...its so sad sometimes watching that thing go all over the place...

[Dave H]

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

I think that if a guy named Keenan stays at home watching the President Cup on tv there is something wrong... imho Bradley deserves that spot, no matter if Tiger was the best player on Earth till 2009, Couples should have given that spot to the Pga Champ, full stop!

Tiger played 2 full tournaments since the Masters and you wanna compare him to regular Tour guys?!

And why are you comparing it to John Daly?!?!? Nearly everyone is better than Daly nowadays! What this comparison has to do with all this?!?

And by the way, yes I think Couples is pretty lucky cause letting home the 2011 PGA Champ and having at the President Cup a Tiger playing like in the PGA Champ welll... that would be pretty lame...

There is nothing wrong here because Keegan didn't do well enough during the season to earn his way onto the team, plain and simple. The only people who deserve to be on the team are those who qualified. Captain's picks are at the captain's discretion.

[crayputter]

  colin007 said:

Originally Posted by colin007

god, i wish tiger would get that driver sorted out...its so sad sometimes watching that thing go all over the place...

Oh yeah...absolutely.....his misses with the big stick were pretty brutal in the Aussie Open....

Ray

[makaveli]

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

The bettors agree with you- on betfair, Tiger is the favorite to be overall points leader (and win the money title next year).  Keegan had a great Rookie year, but still only has 4 PGA Tour Top 10s (I think this is the same as Tiger in his last 21 events during his slump/injury.

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

Good point.

Basically, you could put it this way: even in 2011 Tiger's average performance is better than Keegan's average performance.

Put it another way: if Jason Dufner hadn't helped gift Keegan a major, and had won it himself, would we want Jason Dufner on the team instead of Tiger Woods?

Bettors? I don't get it, why would you base your reasoning on bettors?!? Of course if I have to bet my money it would be on Tiger and not on Bradley but what's the point? I am saying that Couples should have chosen Bradley, I am not saying that at the end he would have chosen Tiger, that was obvious, especially from a marketing POV!

Well if you consider yourself to be a golf passionate and you say that the performance on Tiger was better than the one of Keegan this year based on bettors well... we can finish this discussion here cause it has no point....

  Dave H said:

Originally Posted by Dave H

There is nothing wrong here because Keegan didn't do well enough during the season to earn his way onto the team, plain and simple. The only people who deserve to be on the team are those who qualified. Captain's picks are at the captain's discretion.

That's exactly why I am saying that the Captain's pick are there to permit to players who are not qualified but still deserve to be there to be part of the team: Tiger did nothing to be part of the team this year (imho), while Bradley did the biggest (and only, cause I don't care about the FedEx cup) thing for American golf this year (imho). I would have chosen Bradley, but I can understand he is Mr. Nobody compared to Tiger and nobody in Australia would be interested to see him play over Tiger. imho

[zeg]

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

Bettors? I don't get it, why would you base your reasoning on bettors?!? Of course if I have to bet my money it would be on Tiger and not on Bradley but what's the point? I am saying that Couples should have chosen Bradley,

[...]

That's exactly why I am saying that the Captain's pick are there to permit to players who are not qualified but still deserve to be there to be part of the team: Tiger did nothing to be part of the team this year (imho), while Bradley did the biggest (and only, cause I don't care about the FedEx cup) thing for American golf this year (imho). I would have chosen Bradley, but I can understand he is Mr. Nobody compared to Tiger and nobody in Australia would be interested to see him play over Tiger. imho

It's not about "deserving" to be on the team. It's about building the team that's most likely to win.  Are you really saying that you'd not be willing to bet money on Bradley over Tiger, but that for some reason Couples should throw his "money" away on a bad bet because Bradley won a tournament?

It's not just marketing, Tiger is a proven quantity. Even when he's struggling, he's not *really* struggling, he's just not beating everyone week in and week out.  Any given week he's a still a better bet to finish above Bradley.

This isn't peewee league, this is competitive sports.

[iacas]

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

Bettors? I don't get it, why would you base your reasoning on bettors?!?

I didn't. I very clearly said Tiger's average performance was better than Keegan's.

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

That's exactly why I am saying that the Captain's pick are there to permit to players who are not qualified but still deserve to be there to be part of the team: Tiger did nothing to be part of the team this year (imho), while Bradley did the biggest (and only, cause I don't care about the FedEx cup) thing for American golf this year (imho). I would have chosen Bradley, but I can understand he is Mr. Nobody compared to Tiger and nobody in Australia would be interested to see him play over Tiger. imho

Tiger performed better, on average, than Keegan. You can be all the Tiger hater you want, but saying Tiger did "nothing" is an awfully big stretch.

He's the only guy who moves the needle in golf. STILL. That's reason number two. Reason number one: Keegan's as likely to shit the bed as he is to play well. In the Presidents Cup, where you can't hide players very well (all twelve guys play Thursday and Friday, and 10 go out twice on Saturday), Keegan may have been a risk Fred wasn't willing to take. Which Keegan would show up? MC Keegan or PGA Champ Keegan?

[Dave H]

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

That's exactly why I am saying that the Captain's pick are there to permit to players who are not qualified but still deserve to be there to be part of the team: Tiger did nothing to be part of the team this year (imho), while Bradley did the biggest (and only, cause I don't care about the FedEx cup) thing for American golf this year (imho). I would have chosen Bradley, but I can understand he is Mr. Nobody compared to Tiger and nobody in Australia would be interested to see him play over Tiger. imho

You seem to be missing my point. Captain's picks aren't to pick players "who are not qualified but still deserve to..." because no one other than those who qualified deserve to be there. That's not an opinion it's just the way the system works. You can argue that Keegan might be a more worthy pick than Tiger but Fred Couples didn't think so. I think Keegan is great and has a bright future but I personally would have picked Tiger too for the reasons Erik highlighted. And that's not a criticism against Keegan Bradley.

[makaveli]

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

I didn't. I very clearly said Tiger's average performance was better than Keegan's.

Tiger performed better, on average, than Keegan. You can be all the Tiger hater you want, but saying Tiger did "nothing" is an awfully big stretch.

He's the only guy who moves the needle in golf. STILL. That's reason number two. Reason number one: Keegan's as likely to shit the bed as he is to play well. In the Presidents Cup, where you can't hide players very well (all twelve guys play Thursday and Friday, and 10 go out twice on Saturday), Keegan may have been a risk Fred wasn't willing to take. Which Keegan would show up? MC Keegan or PGA Champ Keegan?

You said "good point" to the bettors post or am I wrong? I don't like commenting golf based on bettors anyway. You can say Tiger performed better, I say the opposite, opinions...

You seem pretty sure about the lack of cold blood of Keegan, I agree with you but I would have picked Keegan this year anyway, I think he deserves it more than Tiger. I know that US must win this President Cup to avoid the infamous negative record in team plays, but this is not as important as the Ryder Cup (imho), so Couples could (imho) have given the spot to Keegan as a price for his nice season...

  Dave H said:

Originally Posted by Dave H

You seem to be missing my point. Captain's picks aren't to pick players "who are not qualified but still deserve to..." because no one other than those who qualified deserve to be there. That's not an opinion it's just the way the system works. You can argue that Keegan might be a more worthy pick than Tiger but Fred Couples didn't think so. I think Keegan is great and has a bright future but I personally would have picked Tiger too for the reasons Erik highlighted. And that's not a criticism against Keegan Bradley.

Same answer as above about giving the spot to Keegan as a price for his nice season, all imho

  zeg said:

Originally Posted by zeg

It's not about "deserving" to be on the team. It's about building the team that's most likely to win.  Are you really saying that you'd not be willing to bet money on Bradley over Tiger, but that for some reason Couples should throw his "money" away on a bad bet because Bradley won a tournament?

It's not just marketing, Tiger is a proven quantity. Even when he's struggling, he's not *really* struggling, he's just not beating everyone week in and week out.  Any given week he's a still a better bet to finish above Bradley.

This isn't peewee league, this is competitive sports.

"Bradley won a tournament" dude, he won the PGA, I know is the less important major but don't just call it "a tournament"...

And looking at the 2011 Tiger I am even not sure about this sentence " Tiger is a proven quantity. Even when he's struggling, he's not *really* struggling, he's just not beating everyone week in and week out.  Any given week he's a still a better bet to finish above Bradley "

[iacas]

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

You said "good point" to the bettors post or am I wrong?

Doesn't mean I fully endorse it. It's just a data point. You can consider it or not.

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

You can say Tiger performed better, I say the opposite, opinions...

They're not necessarily opinions. You can look at things like average finish, % of missed cuts, average $/start, etc.

  makaveli said:

Originally Posted by makaveli

You seem pretty sure about the lack of cold blood of Keegan, I agree with you but I would have picked Keegan this year anyway, I think he deserves it more than Tiger.

I'm not sure what the lack of cold blood relates to. Keegan is hot or cold. He misses cuts or plays well. In a team event like this Fred may have wanted to go with the guy who, even on bad days, tends to shoot around par and makes cuts.

Neither of them "deserve" it. The ones who "deserve" it qualified on points.

Anyway, the Australian Open is over, and Tiger's on the team, and Keegan's not. Are we done talking about it now?