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Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?


iacas
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Why have any rules then? Why can't I test the sand in a bunker by grounding my club? Sounds arbitrary to me, so I'll let you ground your club too then it really won't affect the results because we can both do it. Let's legalize foot wedges too, as long as everyone can do it, it should be fair. We won't be playing golf, but who cares the rule book will be really small.

I find it interesting that so many people are upset by this rule, yet in other threads openly admit that they 'bend" the rules when playing with friends or look the other way then their friends don't follow the rules. So what's the difference if you break another rule? Use your smartphone and enjoy your round of golf. If you want to be a pro or play in a tournament just remember the foot wedges, and Smartphones aren't allowed.

Originally Posted by x129

And why can't you measure slope? Because of an arbitrary rule. Now sports have to have arbitrary rules (i.e. # clubs, ball size and weight,...) but this isn't in that category.  I have to imagine there is also a reason why they don't let rangefinders in meaningful tournaments.

I think you are over estimating the value of weather that a smart phone can provide. You are not going to get info saying that the wind is blowing 20mph on your hole. You are going to get info saying that it is blowing 20mph at a weather station 7 miles a way 30 mins ago. Not to mention the info wouldn't change the tournament results at all since all players would have the info. It is just another random rule thrown in there to make sure the rule book is nice and thick.



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Joe Paradiso

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Originally Posted by Shorty

No you don't.

People survived without rangefinders and GPS devices. You don't HAVE to have one.

Are you also going to claim that it's unfair because someone else has $600 worth of Gore-Tex raingear and you have an old raincoat?

Unless you are playing in a high level event where ALL devices are banned, I would expect that half the other players are using their smartphones anyway. I wouldn't be too concerned.


No, it becomes unfair when someone has $600 worth of Gore-Tex raingear but the rules prohibit me from wearing my old raincoat.

As far as your last comment, I think it is incredibly unhealthy for the game when a ruling of the USGA is routinely ignored.  And in this case the problem isn't the ignoring, it is the ruling.

Contrary to iacas' argument it is absurdly easy to cheat without anyone ever being able to see.  Just miss a few short putts to keep your handicap artificially high.  That is cheating every bit as much as not counting penalty strokes when you hit out of bounds.  But no one can possibly detect it because there is no way for the to know you missed intentionally.  I would argue that it is easier to see someone using a weather app improperly than it is to tell that they missed a putt on purpose.  Or sliced out of bounds on purpose.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

I don't know why everyone is so offended by this rule regarding GPS on the phone.  It's easy to understand the USGA's motivation behind the decision and as previously mentioned, GOOD players can take advantage of fully understanding the weather.  This is a black and white issue and the USGA decided to take the hard stance.

I currently have GolfLogix on my BlackBerry and now that this rule has come into effect, I just won't register again this year and will delete the app.  Boo hoo, big deal.  I purchased a Range Finder and will use that as well as pace out my distances (plus, in the case where i may be in a cart, alot of courses these days come equipped with GPS on the cart).

As for if I have to make a call or answer the phone in case of an emergency, is someone really going to run over to me and point in my face that I can't post my score because I took an important business or personal call?

If I'm playing in a tournament, I'll make sure to take care of all that I possibly can prior to the start of the tournament and when it does, place the phone out of sight in my bag and use my range finder.



So selective breaking of rules is OK so long as no one gets in your face about it?

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

Bingo.  My Golf Logix APP on my BlackBerry is enginerred by Garmin.


But there are lots and lots of rangefinder apps that are NOT developed by the few companies that made hardware rangefinders.  Knocking out lots of competitors can only benefit the hardware guys.  Eve if it eviscerates there own app market, which they just entered for defensive purposes in the first place.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Do you really believe these start up smartphone app developers went out and mapped every course in the country over night?  While not all the apps are developed by the hardware companies I'm guessing they are licensing their mapping data to all of them and taking a cut of the profits.  It's no coincidence that every decent smartphone app that includes detailed map data costs approximately the same $30 - $40.

Originally Posted by turtleback

But there are lots and lots of rangefinder apps that are NOT developed by the few companies that made hardware rangefinders.  Knocking out lots of competitors can only benefit the hardware guys.  Eve if it eviscerates there own app market, which they just entered for defensive purposes in the first place.



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Joe Paradiso

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I'm sorry, but there are some truly sad misconceptions in this thread when it comes to the whole "weather app" concept.  Speaking on the iPhone:

The weather app that comes pre-loaded and cannot be deleted is plain USELESS to a golfer when it comes to any kind of competitive advantage.  The app itself does NOT provide wind speed or direction or any of the other information being argued about.  It tells you the date, the high and low temp and through pictures what type of GENERAL weather you can expect (Sunny, cloudy, stormy).  You have to click through to the web and more than one page to get wind speed, barometric pressure, humidity, etc, and ALL OF IT is far too generalized to be of any use to a golfer.  My phone tells me right now that wind speed is 3 mph.  Great.  3mph in what direction?  Gotta rely on feel and typical golf tricks for that info.  And 3mph, where?  Well, in TAMPA of course.  Great.  What part of Tampa.  Oh, I get it, wind never varies from spot to spot within a city right?  Seriously.  Get a grip folks.

How about my Weather Channel app?  Yep, that one's much more specific.  So, it's 3mph and SSE.  Great.  Oh.  Wait.  Look at that.  It's telling me the weather for a different zip code than where I'm currently at.  Let's fix that.  OK, now it's SE at 4mph.  Of course, I know this zip code pretty darn well.  I live about 2 miles as the crow flies from where I'm currently sitting.  No chance the wind is different over there, right?  This weather app even gives me the ability to check weather hourly with ind speed and direction.  The next hour it will be 3mph S, the hour after that 3mph SSW.  I could easily check this information before going on the course and be just as (un)informed as if I had done so on the course.

Weather apps don't provide you with wind speed and direction where you are standing.  They give you very generic information that's about as useful as watching the weather forecast before leaving for the course.

If I can be counted on to count my own strokes, to not improve my lie and to call penalties on myself, I can sure as hell be counted on to ONLY use my phone as a GPS device when on the course.

[quote]Use your smartphone and enjoy your round of golf. If you want to be a pro or play in a tournament just remember the foot wedges, and Smartphones aren't allowed.[/quote]

This I almost 100% agree with.  That being said, I do have an issue if a dedicated GPS device is allowed.  Not that I play tournament golf at this point, but I have my GPS app on my phone specifically so I wouldn't have to shell out the cash for a dedicated GPS device.  It still goes back to what I said above to me.  Golf is a game that even when played competitively is played, for most the most part, on our honor.  This particular ruling goes against that concept.

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I'm sorry, but there are some truly sad misconceptions in this thread when it comes to the whole "weather app" concept.  Speaking on the iPhone: The weather app that comes pre-loaded and cannot be deleted is plain USELESS to a golfer when it comes to any kind of competitive advantage.  The app itself does NOT provide wind speed or direction or any of the other information being argued about.  It tells you the date, the high and low temp and through pictures what type of GENERAL weather you can expect (Sunny, cloudy, stormy).  You have to click through to the web and more than one page to get wind speed, barometric pressure, humidity, etc, and ALL OF IT is far too generalized to be of any use to a golfer.  My phone tells me right now that wind speed is 3 mph.  Great.  3mph in what direction?  Gotta rely on feel and typical golf tricks for that info.  And 3mph, where?  Well, in TAMPA of course.  Great.  What part of Tampa.  Oh, I get it, wind never varies from spot to spot within a city right?  Seriously.  Get a grip folks.

You've got a browser. The whole of the internet is at your smartphone's disposal. That was included in the OP if I read it correctly.

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Originally Posted by jamo

You've got a browser. The whole of the internet is at your smartphone's disposal. That was included in the OP if I read it correctly.



A point I addressed with the rest of my post.

Regardless of the fact that my main point is that I should be able to be trusted to NOT access the internet, it doesn't change the fact that the internet can't give me accurate and detailed information about the wind at the specific location I happen to be at on the course.  The only thing that can do that is an anemometer, or POSSIBLY to some extent an app designed to measure wind using the speaker of the phone.  Of course those apps can only be so accurate and you have to figure out direction yourself (besides the point, but interesting information).

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C'mon, JW, just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're under "sad misconceptions." We just don't agree.

It doesn't matter to me how basic the weather information is, the rule is short and sweet: you are allowed zero weather information. With zero, there is no argument over how useful it is, whether the wind is the same here as elsewhere, etc.

This rule is also not unique in not "trusting" the golfer.  The rules don't let you carry a 15th club without penalty, no matter how honorable you are or how many times you pinky swear not to use it.  If you need to lift your ball to identify it, you must notify a fellow competitor and allow them to observe your lifting to ensure that you replace it correctly. I'm sure there are other examples.

Finally, remember that before smart phones existed, the rules allowed only distance measuring devices with no other capabilities. Smart phone GPSes have *never* been legal, so there needs to be a compelling reason to change the rules to permit them. Given the can of worms of defining what is and is not permitted under such a modification, as well as the headaches in determining whether these rules were violated, I don't see that saving $60 in equipment is a compelling reason.

As I've said earlier, for handicap purposes, such rounds should be allowed, but in any kind of competition, the rules are fine just as they are. You're already allowed to turn in handicap rounds that would be DQ for a competition (e.g., when you fail to hole out on one or more holes), so there's no inconsistency here.

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T-Zoid Forged 15° 3W, MX-23 4-PW
Harmonized 52° GW, Tom Watson 56° SW, X-Forged Vintage 60° LW
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Originally Posted by Shorty

Dead on.

That's the elephant in the room in this thread, isn't it?

People with expensive phones whining about the cost of a GPS or laser rangefinder.


This was an idiotic thing to say.

first of all, my smart phone was a business write off and was needed for my business purposes - not too mention with rebates and everything else - not that much money.

Second, you assume you know how much everyone pays golf. I marshal so I can golf for free cuz I couldn't afford it otherwise. Also, I will go to a new course during super twilight hours when it's cheapest to play.

I don't have GPS's money - I DO have $29 for the APP. I used to pace off distances etc etc...it annoyed everyone around me and slowed up play -

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Before hand held GPS's existed they weren't allowed either so I assume you were against legalizing them for certain rounds also?  Remember this ban isn't really just smart phones. It is any phone that can access the web (i.e. just about anything built in the past 10 years) to look at a weather report. If you answer a call during a round with that phone, you have technically broken the rules now. So if your losing your club championship, be sure to have a friend place a call to the leader and see if you can get him DQed.

Originally Posted by zeg

C'mon, JW, just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're under "sad misconceptions." We just don't agree.

It doesn't matter to me how basic the weather information is, the rule is short and sweet: you are allowed zero weather information. With zero, there is no argument over how useful it is, whether the wind is the same here as elsewhere, etc.

This rule is also not unique in not "trusting" the golfer.  The rules don't let you carry a 15th club without penalty, no matter how honorable you are or how many times you pinky swear not to use it.  If you need to lift your ball to identify it, you must notify a fellow competitor and allow them to observe your lifting to ensure that you replace it correctly. I'm sure there are other examples.

Finally, remember that before smart phones existed, the rules allowed only distance measuring devices with no other capabilities. Smart phone GPSes have *never* been legal, so there needs to be a compelling reason to change the rules to permit them. Given the can of worms of defining what is and is not permitted under such a modification, as well as the headaches in determining whether these rules were violated, I don't see that saving $60 in equipment is a compelling reason.

As I've said earlier, for handicap purposes, such rounds should be allowed, but in any kind of competition, the rules are fine just as they are. You're already allowed to turn in handicap rounds that would be DQ for a competition (e.g., when you fail to hole out on one or more holes), so there's no inconsistency here.



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Originally Posted by newtogolf

Do you really believe these start up smartphone app developers went out and mapped every course in the country over night?  While not all the apps are developed by the hardware companies I'm guessing they are licensing their mapping data to all of them and taking a cut of the profits.  It's no coincidence that every decent smartphone app that includes detailed map data costs approximately the same $30 - $40.



Gee, mine (Swing by Swing) was free and has had data on every course I have tried without having to pay anything for course data.

And the whole "you can afford an expensive phone so you can afford a dedicated GPS" argument fails on two counts.  First of all many (approaching most) people have a smartphone for reasons that have nothing to do with golf.  Getting a rangefinder app is usually tangential to why the person has the phone.  Secondly, in my experience the phone apps are just better in their features than the dedicated GPSs.  Even iacas, the defender of the pure, admits that he uses his phone in a way that technically violates the rules in casual rounds because it does something a dedicated GPS doesn't.  I have both and far prefer my phone app.

Why is it that people are excoriated for ignoring other rules in casual rounds and told they aren't really playing golf, yet violations of this ruling are seen as normal and OK by even the most compliant of golfers?  Because deep down in our hearts we know what a bogus ruling this is.  And as l've said before, it is terrible for golf to have a situation where even the most serious of golfers feels it is OK to violate a rule except in the most formal competitions.  What other rule practically invites such pervasive ignoring?

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But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

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Originally Posted by zeg

C'mon, JW, just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're under "sad misconceptions." We just don't agree.

It doesn't matter to me how basic the weather information is, the rule is short and sweet: you are allowed zero weather information. With zero, there is no argument over how useful it is, whether the wind is the same here as elsewhere, etc.

This rule is also not unique in not "trusting" the golfer.  The rules don't let you carry a 15th club without penalty, no matter how honorable you are or how many times you pinky swear not to use it.  If you need to lift your ball to identify it, you must notify a fellow competitor and allow them to observe your lifting to ensure that you replace it correctly. I'm sure there are other examples.

Finally, remember that before smart phones existed, the rules allowed only distance measuring devices with no other capabilities. Smart phone GPSes have *never* been legal, so there needs to be a compelling reason to change the rules to permit them. Given the can of worms of defining what is and is not permitted under such a modification, as well as the headaches in determining whether these rules were violated, I don't see that saving $60 in equipment is a compelling reason.

As I've said earlier, for handicap purposes, such rounds should be allowed, but in any kind of competition, the rules are fine just as they are. You're already allowed to turn in handicap rounds that would be DQ for a competition (e.g., when you fail to hole out on one or more holes), so there's no inconsistency here.


Zeq, my comment about "sad misconceptions" was aimed at those who seem to think that the smart phones provide much more information than they actually do.  I get your point and understand it.  We just disagree on whether or not it should matter.

And not to nit-pick, but $60 would be one heck of a cheap GPS device.  Not that they don't exist, but we are typically talking in the range of $100-300.

Also, and I'm prepared to be proved wrong here, but I believe your statement that "Smart phone GPSes have *never* been legal" is inaccurate.  It is my understanding that the USGA and R&A; had specifically put out rulings stating they WERE legal under certain circumstances.

You are correct that there are some rules that violate the "honor system" concept I mentioned, but I think we can both agree that the VAST MAJORITY of them do not.

As to your last statement, we agree.

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Originally Posted by mymizunosrock

If you're lucky enough to live in a place where the wind does not gust, then you are indeed, very lucky. I just checked my local weather. Wind speed 16km/h with 31km/h gusts from SSE. How that information would help me RIGHT NOW when it was updated 10mins ago at a weather station 13km away, well, it wouldnt help me. I look outside and the trees are barely moving. My whole point is that weather apps are essentially useless in most cases and that people simply would not use them on every shot even if they could. You would be forced to assess the conditions at the time of the shot anyway.

At the end of the day, I would treat your practice rounds like comp rounds. Challenge yourself to understand and interpret the wind strength and direction like you would on any comp day.


Gust is something noboby can predict, not even from the tree tops. I was talking about the direction of the wind, which seems very different once you are standing on the tee box and looking at the flag. I have seen soooooo many golfers throwing grass in the air in a tee box surrounded by trees and believing in what they see from the flight of that grass. Sheer stupidity, I say.

What you say about challenging myself regarding wind is the real thing, that indeed should I do. Unfortunately striking the ball in my desired direction seems to be so difficult that I want to get all accurate information about every other (outside) factor that I can in order to plan my shot. Despite this effort I most of the time fail to get the desired outcome due to those other factors I cannot get accurate info of... :-D

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Originally Posted by x129

Before hand held GPS's existed they weren't allowed either so I assume you were against legalizing them for certain rounds also?  Remember this ban isn't really just smart phones. It is any phone that can access the web (i.e. just about anything built in the past 10 years) to look at a weather report. If you answer a call during a round with that phone, you have technically broken the rules now. So if your losing your club championship, be sure to have a friend place a call to the leader and see if you can get him DQed.

I did not golf before GPS or rangefinders were common and legalized, so I didn't have an opinion on that change. Honestly, I can see both sides of the (largely off-topic here) argument for allowing distance measuring devices in the first place and I'd bet that was a difficult modification to the rules to push through the committees at the USGA et al.

Note that using a smart phone to take a call is most likely not against the rules. The rule prohibits using the phone as a distance measuring device if it has other capabilities. The OP article hints that maybe it's illegal to use it at all, but it's not clear in the article what it means and the quoted section only concerns itself with a smart phone used as a distance measuring device.

Originally Posted by turtleback

And the whole "you can afford an expensive phone so you can afford a dedicated GPS" argument fails on two counts.  First of all many (approaching most) people have a smartphone for reasons that have nothing to do with golf.  Getting a rangefinder app is usually tangential to why the person has the phone.


That's totally irrelevant. The point is that there are very few people who can afford a smart phone and simply can't find some reasonable way to come up with the cash to buy a dedicated golf GPS. Very few people actually need a smart phone, but somehow they manage to pay for the phone and the data plan...

Also, in answer to your question "what other rule practically invites such pervasive ignoring?"  That one's easy: stroke and distance for a lost ball. :-)

Originally Posted by jwrussell

Zeq, my comment about "sad misconceptions" was aimed at those who seem to think that the smart phones provide much more information than they actually do.  I get your point and understand it.  We just disagree on whether or not it should matter.

And not to nit-pick, but $60 would be one heck of a cheap GPS device.  Not that they don't exist, but we are typically talking in the range of $100-300.

Also, and I'm prepared to be proved wrong here, but I believe your statement that "Smart phone GPSes have *never* been legal" is inaccurate.  It is my understanding that the USGA and R&A; had specifically put out rulings stating they WERE legal under certain circumstances.


Thanks for clarifying.  The $60 is the difference in price between an app ($29 was being tossed around upthread) and where a few GPS devices become available. There are (when I checked last week) 5 of them under $100, and I think the cheapest was $75.

And it seems you are correct---the ruling quoted in the article does say that the "don't use it" rule was in effect in 2009.  So I had that wrong.

In any case, I'm sure there will be changes to this rule over the next few years, but I still don't see the update as being unjust. It seems eminently reasonable to me.

In the bag:
FT-iQ 10° driver, FT 21° neutral 3H
T-Zoid Forged 15° 3W, MX-23 4-PW
Harmonized 52° GW, Tom Watson 56° SW, X-Forged Vintage 60° LW
White Hot XG #1 Putter, 33"

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I have seen it both ways. It seems incredibly stupid that it would be ok to use a phone with a weather app to answer calls but not to measure distance. If you trust the golfer will not cheat when checking a text message (image you see the temperature on the home screen by mistake) you should trust they will not cheat when measuring the hole.

The real problem with these type of rules is that they will be ignored by 99% of all golfers 99% of the time and then someone will get DQed in a real event because they forget. You see this type of stuff in HS sports all the time where atheletes get DQ for things like wearing a livestrong bracelet or having different color undergarments (dark gray versus black). The rules lawyers say "should have known the rules". Everyone else feels it is a crappy way to lose (or win) by something that doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by zeg

I did not golf before GPS or rangefinders were common and legalized, so I didn't have an opinion on that change. Honestly, I can see both sides of the (largely off-topic here) argument for allowing distance measuring devices in the first place and I'd bet that was a difficult modification to the rules to push through the committees at the USGA et al.

Note that using a smart phone to take a call is most likely not against the rules. The rule prohibits using the phone as a distance measuring device if it has other capabilities. The OP article hints that maybe it's illegal to use it at all, but it's not clear in the article what it means and the quoted section only concerns itself with a smart phone used as a distance measuring device.



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There's a lot of discussion about wind speed and direction here, and I agree it's very important. However, I think there is some misconception about how a smartphone gets its weather data and wind speed and direction in particular. iPhones and other smartphones are not capable of measuring weather on the course (unless someone comes out with a mini weather station to attach to them). Smartphones pull their weather data from the nearest generic weather data field, and weather stations are usually based at regional airports, though they may be in other locations as well. The question then becomes, is knowing the wind speed and direction and other weather at your regional airport an advantage? Probably not. You're better off dropping some grass clippings and looking at trees and flags near the green.

Interesting that the USGA now offers an iPhone app edition of the Rules of Golf. Wonder if the right hand knew what the left hand was doing on that one?!

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So the Rules of Golf should allow the use of weather apps so long as the reporting weather station is... 15 miles away? 10? 13.1? 3? Does this distance vary by locale, since I imagine the weather in the plains states doesn't vary much given the contours?

No, the USGA has to make the rule as simple and plain and basic as possible.

Erik, we agree the rules should not allow the use of any weather app or info ever, period! The rule is clear.  I like the rule.

What we don't seem to agree on is the usefulness of apps or the Weather Channel for golf.  I think they are not useful at all because they are not telling you what is happening where you are exactly, at the time you need it.  They are telling you the weather someplace else at some earlier time.  To rely on it on a Smartphone would be a waste of time.

This has been the most entertaining rules thread.

Scott

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