Tiger Injures Achilles Tendon

[newtogolf]

Hogan also had to totally modify his swing due to his injuries, which took quite a long time.  I don't think Tiger has the motivation Hogan did to get back to where he was and as Erik stated, the Tour is much more competitive today than it was in Hogans day.

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Okay then he won't. All I'm saying is golfers have come back from more catastrophic injuries than a tweaked Achilles.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Hogan also had to totally modify his swing due to his injuries, which took quite a long time.  I don't think Tiger has the motivation Hogan did to get back to where he was and as Erik stated, the Tour is much more competitive today than it was in Hogans day.

Yet he was motivated to change his swing four times. Odd.

[newtogolf]

I understand that, but the swing changes he made don't appear to relieve the forces on his left leg.  I'm not being critical of Tiger, just pointing out that he may to need to make some radical changes to his swing that will force him to totally change his game.

In Hogans time it was possible for him to come back and win, but given the competition that's out there I'm not sure Tiger can win playing the game like Luke Donald.

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Yet he was motivated to change his swing four times. Odd.

[Apotheosis]

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson

Running has always been listed as the likely culprit for all Tiger's leg maladies. I can attest to this as someone who has been working out with heavy weights for 20+ years and is also a runner. All my leg injuries (knee, hamstring, achilles and plantar fasciitis), have been the direct result of running. I have never had a lower body injury as the result of squats or deadlifts. The doctor told me on numerous occasions to stop running on pavement, but never told me to curtail my lifting activities.

Read the book Born to Run by Christopher McDougall.  It will change your running life.

[Elvisliveson]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

In Hogans time it was possible for him to come back and win, but given the competition that's out there I'm not sure Tiger can win playing the game like Luke Donald.

In Hogan's time virtually nobody had a swing coach nor changed their swing once they reached the tour. Hogan's accident forced him to do this and therefore it actually worked to his advantage since he gained a better undertsanding of the golf swing than he had previously while his peers rested on their laurels, so to speak. Nowdays, everybody constantly thinks about and tweeks there swing, so Tiger has no advantage in that regard.

[k-troop]

How can you argue that? You are misinterpreting what they said. Have you ever seriously lifted before? By definition, if you are doing a large amount of repetitions, you are not using a seriously heavy weight for you and that's all that matters. He may be able to use heavier weights than the average person can for 25 reps, as can I, but relative to him it's not seriously heavy then. To truly lift heavy he would have to use a weight at which he could only perform 4-6 reps for, not 25. I don't know how much clearer I can make this.

Sorry. I was interpreting the words "extremely high" to mean extremely high. Clearly his trainer thinks he's taking it to the max in the gym by some measurable standard. Kinda moot, as the quotes are 5 years old, and his injuries happened shortly after they were uttered. And yeah, I used to lift weights when I was a young punk. 5 days a week in the gym after standard Army PT. Now at 36 I don't because a 36-yo body doesn't get it done as well as a 26-yo body.

[Elvisliveson]

Originally Posted by k-troop

Sorry. I was interpreting the words "extremely high" to mean extremely high. Clearly his trainer thinks he's taking it to the max in the gym by some measurable standard.

Kinda moot, as the quotes are 5 years old, and his injuries happened shortly after they were uttered. And yeah, I used to lift weights when I was a young punk. 5 days a week in the gym after standard Army PT. Now at 36 I don't because a 36-yo body doesn't get it done as well as a 26-yo body.

Man, you are thick. I told you what the measureable standard was regarding truly heavy lifting, which is 4-6 reps. Extremely high in the article referred to his rep scheme which at 25-50, which is extremely, extremely high

It even says in the article that Tiger shys away from the heavy.weights and low reps favored by bodybuilders becaase he didn't want to bulk up like that.

You may have lifted weights when you were young, but you obviously never moved beyond a rudimentary understanding of weight training.

[VOX]

I think Tiger's statement that he would get it checked early next week was just a misstatement. He probably meant early this week. A lot of people don't realize that in the US the week begins on Sunday. He probably thinks the week begins on Monday as it does in Europe.

[brocks]

Hogan also had to totally modify his swing due to his injuries, which took quite a long time.

I guess it depends on your perspective, but it seemed a remarkably short time to me. He left the hospital, still unable to walk, in April of 1949. He tied for first (but lost the playoff) in the LA Open in January 1950, and won the US Open (in an 18-hole playoff) later that year.

[brocks]

Nice summary of the situation from TGC's Jason Sobel: ======================== I learned that no matter what Tiger Woods does, he’ll always be wrong in the eyes of some fans. Here is a sampling of tweets I received after his withdrawal on Sunday: “I knew he was still injured!” (Funny. Didn’t hear anyone making that claim after he shot a final-round 62 last week.) “He’s just a quitter and a sore loser!” (In 278 career PGA Tour starts, he has withdrawn exactly five times – or once every three years.) “He would have kept going if he was in contention!” (Well, yeah. No kidding. Same goes for every other player on Tour. If you’re injured, but in contention, you gut it out; if you’re injured and out of the mix, there’s no point in risking further damage to the injury.) Conspiracy theories aside, the truth is, Woods was close to regaining top form before injuring himself once again. We don’t yet know the extent of the left Achilles injury, but if it was enough to force him from the event, then it’s enough to cause plenty of concern. I’ve never understood claims – in golf or other sports – from fans who consider athletes “soft” for repeatedly getting injured. Sometimes it’s just bad luck. Tiger didn’t hurt himself on purpose or through any fault of his own, so why is there such a backlash against him right now? Well, as we’ve learned when it comes to him, such criticism will always exist, no matter what. – Jason Sobel =========================

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by brocks

Nice summary of the situation from TGC's Jason Sobel:

========================

I“He would have kept going if he was in contention!” (Well, yeah. No kidding. Same goes for every other player on Tour. If you’re injured, but in contention, you gut it out; if you’re injured and out of the mix, there’s no point in risking further damage to the injury.)

=========================

Yeah, this is the gist of the question I posed earlier.  I had a strong reaction that it's not okay to quit when "can I still win" is the primary discriminator between quit or don't quit.  It seems contrary to the spirit of golf that, all else being equal, it's okay to quit if you know you can't win.  Clearly I'm in the minority with this reaction.

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson

Man, you are thick. I told you what the measureable standard was regarding truly heavy lifting, which is 4-6 reps. Extremely high in the article referred to his rep scheme which at 25-50, which is extremely, extremely high.  (Look again at the article.  It says his RESISTANCE at that rep count is extremely high.)

It even says in the article that Tiger shys away from the heavy.weights and low reps favored by bodybuilders becaase he didn't want to bulk up like that.

You may have lifted weights when you were young, but you obviously never moved beyond a rudimentary understanding of weight training.

More name calling and personal attacks.  We're having a discussion here about facts, and reasonable conclusions based on those facts.  You don't think my conclusions are reasonable.  I get it.

Let's assume that Tiger's 1RM (1-rep max) for a squat is 550-600 lbs (probably a reasonable assumption given the "extremely high" & "reached new highs" characterization of his trainer).  And, please look at the quote again from his trainer:  the trainer said his RESISTANCE was "extremely high" for his rep count, so we're talking about an extremely high amount of WEIGHT for that rep count.  A normal person with a 550-600# 1RM squat might do 25 squats at 40% 1RM, or about 225-250#.  If Tiger's resistance at that rep count is extremely high, then he might be doing 50% or 60% 1RM, so 300-350#.

That's still a lot of weight.  It's not a lot of weight for someone who is that strong, especially if you're talking about reps 1-10.  However, at reps 20-25, it's a lot of weight.  Particularly if you're on set 3, 4, 5, etc.  It's easy to see how at the end of that pyramid he could be perceiving an extremely intense work level at a weight that is well below his 1RM.

Now granted, I have only a "rudimentary understanding" of weight training, but to me, it seems like that could be pushing right up to the limits of one's physical strength and endurance.  At those limits, people's bodies fail, technique falters, and injuries occur.  The likelihood of injury also starts to increase when an athlete gets into their mid-30s, because things that were easy last year are less easy this year.

Let's look at what else we know about Tiger Woods.  He does things that no one else can do.  He trains harder than any golfer has ever trained.  He's training harder than athletes of other sports train, by his own trainer's words.  The only person who sets limits for Tiger is Tiger.  That spirit is ingrained in his DNA.

I have never personally concluded that Tiger's injuries are the result of weight training.  I haven't written that here, either.  But, is it totally unreasonable to think he pushes himself right up to his limit?  Must we conclude that, without exception, every rep is fully controlled?  That he never goes for another rep with 350# on his back even though he's not sure it's actually there?  Sure, at 31 years old he said that he's never been injured lifting.  However, at 32 he suffered a catastrophic injury to his knee:  severe ligament damage that resulted in bone-on-bone contact which produced stress fractures.  This article is a snapshot into his workout regimen--and workout mentality--immediately preceding that injury.  You're saying it's not even relevant?

And, again, it's totally off topic.  The article, and the quotes within it, are 5 years old.  They're talking about his workout routine in 2007.  Since then, he's had two (basically) season-ending injuries to his knees and achilles.  I have no doubt that his routines are different now.

[goob3r]

Originally Posted by k-troop

I used to have my head firmly implanted in Tiger's jock, but I've tried to be more objective about him lately.  My head is now firmly implanted in Phil's jock, but Rory just sent me a drink from the other side of the bar...

Got a good laugh out of that!

[brocks]

Let's assume that Tiger's 1RM (1-rep max) for a squat is 550-600 lbs (probably a reasonable assumption given the "extremely high" & "reached new highs" characterization of his trainer).

Sorry, but that is a ridiculous assumption. A 600-pound squat in good form is what you might reasonably assume a 300-pound NFL lineman could do. I doubt Tiger ever even thought about doing over 300. I realize that there powerlifters at Tiger's weight who can squat 600, but that's the result of extraordinary genetics and training. Tiger just uses weights to keep in shape. It's like Rory can hit a 350-yard drive, but you wouldn't start a sentence about a recreational golfer, even if he's world class at some other sport, with, "Let's assume X can hit his driver 350."

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by brocks

Sorry, but that is a ridiculous assumption. A 600-pound squat in good form is what you might reasonably assume a 300-pound NFL lineman could do. I doubt Tiger ever even thought about doing over 300.

I realize that there powerlifters at Tiger's weight who can squat 600, but that's the result of extraordinary genetics and training. Tiger just uses weights to keep in shape. It's like Rory can hit a 350-yard drive, but you wouldn't start a sentence about a recreational golfer, even if he's world class at some other sport, with, "Let's assume X can hit his driver 350."

Okay, substitue 500 for his 1RM.  The rest of the logic still remains intact.

And I've seen plenty of recreational lifters enter the 1000# club with squats at or near 500#.  They're not professional athletes, of Tiger's determination, with professional trainers, dedicating their every breath to excellence in sport.  I have personally hit over 400# many times, and I'm certainly no Tiger Woods.

[brocks]

Tiger Woods is no Tiger Woods when it comes to powerlifting. He has legs like a bird. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/237291/width/640/height/479][IMG]http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/237291/width/640/height/479[/IMG][/URL]

[Leftygolfer]

You can't judge his leg strength on those pics.  I've seen someone with birdy looking legs squat 4 plates in sets.

It really depends on the injury (obviously).  If it is some inflamation it isn't going to keep him from too much golf.  But if he has something that will not heal right then who knows.  He's no spring chicken so he might not be healing quickly anymore.

[jamo]

From Tiger's Twitter:

Got good news from doc tonight. Only mild strain of left Achilles. Can resume hitting balls late in week and hopeful for next week.

— Tiger Woods (@TigerWoods) March 13, 2012

[Paradox]

K-troop..the rebuttal I have for your stance on him "quitting" is that he didn't just quit because he couldn't win.  He quit because he was injured and to him, nothing besides 1st matters so why risk further injury for something unimportant at his level?

Winning is paramount to this guy and so of course he would stay as long as he could competitively put the club on the ball if he were in contention.  What makes you think it would have been better for him to injure himself and miss the rest of the season to finish t-10th or something like that?  Do you have this same stance on other players who have withdrawn?