USGA position on smartphone GPSs

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

That means current devices with a compass would be ok.

14-3/4 says a compass is illegal

This seems like a silly decision to me.  First of all, knowing magnetic north doesn't seem like such valuable information.  Yes there may be a prevailing wind direction, but even in that instance the wind does shift direction during the day, so knowing where North is wouldn't necessarily tell you the direction of the wind.  Secondly, it is pretty easy to tell where North is most of the time from the position of the sun.  Heck, if the sun is out and you know the time (morning or afternoon) you can determine North by holding a club vertically - in the morning the shadow points west and in the afternoon the shadow points east.  Thirdly, if you have a course map or there is one on the scorecard it is absurdly easy to mark North on the map, which then tells you where North is no matter where on the course you are.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by turtleback

This seems like a silly decision to me.  First of all, knowing magnetic north doesn't seem like such valuable information.  Yes there may be a prevailing wind direction, but even in that instance the wind does shift direction during the day, so knowing where North is wouldn't necessarily tell you the direction of the wind.  Secondly, it is pretty easy to tell where North is most of the time from the position of the sun.  Heck, if the sun is out and you know the time (morning or afternoon) you can determine North by holding a club vertically - in the morning the shadow points west and in the afternoon the shadow points east.  Thirdly, if you have a course map or there is one on the scorecard it is absurdly easy to mark North on the map, which then tells you where North is no matter where on the course you are.

I think that the rulesmakers simply try to err on the side of making as many artificial devices illegal as possible.

They got in a sticky situation with DMDs since yardages have almost always been marked for holes, and they couldn't stop someone from writing a bunch of yardages down before the rounds, so DMDs became "legal sometimes."

Seems perfectly reasonable to me that a compass isn't allowed. If you can use the sun, go for it. At least that's relying on your abilities.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

...Seems perfectly reasonable to me that a compass isn't allowed. If you can use the sun, go for it. At least that's relying on your abilities.

All other things being equal, I'd agree with that. The problem is, disallowing a compass is in effect disallowing the use of almost every smartphone as a DMD, since most (all maybe?) have built-in compasses. So they rules bodies are not *just* banning compasses. They're banning smart phones (as DMDs) as a logical result.

Given the fact that, as others have pointed out, you're allowed to mark N/S/E/W arrows on the course map/scorecard before your round - the equivalent of having a compass for all intents and purposes - it makes no sense to me to have this rule.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Given the fact that, as others have pointed out, you're allowed to mark N/S/E/W arrows on the course map/scorecard before your round - the equivalent of having a compass for all intents and purposes - it makes no sense to me to have this rule.

I disagree that it's a logical extension. You can LOOK at the weather, but weather apps are illegal as well. You can even "write down" a full chapter from an instructional book (or bring it along) if you do it before you go to play.

I think the rulesmakers simply allowed DMDs because they felt they'd speed up play without allowing a whole new "ability" (again, we've been measuring and marking distances for ages, and "distance" is considered public knowledge). And used responsibly, I believe they do.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Given the fact that, as others have pointed out, you're allowed to mark N/S/E/W arrows on the course map/scorecard before your round - the equivalent of having a compass for all intents and purposes - it makes no sense to me to have this rule.

I disagree that it's a logical extension.

Sorry, not clear on what you're saying - you disagree that what is a logical extension of what?

[bplewis24]

Hmmm, isn't it possible for me to simply say the following:

"Yes, my device has an electronic compass on it.  However, there are no apps on it that allow me to use it as a compass and therefore this "information is only accessible via an internet browser or shortcut to the internet."?

http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2012/March/Distance-Measuring-Devices.aspx?goback=.gde_2377813_member_104886812

The way the flowchart is worded, there has to be an application installed which both measures distance AND can measure conditions & items other than distance which are banned.  Mine has no such application on the phone (Samsung Galaxy Nexus) even though from what I know it has a built-in compass and barometer on it (used for more accurate GPS/maps information).

Or are you guys not making any distinction between a "compass" and a "DMD or Device with a compass."

Being completely honest, my law school background leaves me believing that the governing body is leaving in some gray areas on purpose to allow for smartphones to be used as DMDs within the "spirit of the rule."

Brandon

[zeg]

Brandon, I think we had that discussion before, in this or a similar thread. The earlier context that I remember had to do with what it means to be capable of making a measurement. I think the only sensible meaning is that there must be an app installed to take advantage, and I think there may have been confirmation from a reputable source that this was the intention. My memory is hazy now though.

It seems clear to me that making smartphones legal as DMD is simply not a priority of the powers that be. For better or worse, they're slowly modifying the rules and not disturbing prior rulings about multifunction devices. IMO this is prudent, simply because the capabilities of a smartphone are changing so rapidly that it'd be hard to keep up.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by zeg

...

It seems clear to me that making smartphones legal as DMD is simply not a priority of the powers that be. For better or worse, they're slowly modifying the rules and not disturbing prior rulings about multifunction devices. IMO this is prudent, simply because the capabilities of a smartphone are changing so rapidly that it'd be hard to keep up.

Yeah, but seems to me that there'd be no need to keep up with smart phone capabilities if the rule simply stated "DMD apps are legal", without the "...unless you also have app x y or z" installed" clause.

As I said in the other thread on this topic: Since the existing rules are already trusting us to not have any of those illegal apps installed if we're using a DMD, there's no reason they can't also trust us to just not use them if they *are* installed.

[Rulesman]

The RBs' primary concern is to try and prevent technology from changing the game to such an extent that the player has virtually nothing to do.

If the technology gets onto the course, whether permitted or not, it will be used by those who have no respect for the intent of the game. Eventually inertia will make the use of the technology the norm and the game of judgement and skill we play will disappear.

[newtogolf]

You can't just issue a blanket statement for all DMD apps for all phones.  What is some apps like some rangefinders offer features that aren't legal, such as club suggestions or incorporate features such as compass and weather to determine wind speed.  Once you allow DMD apps, you're going to force the USGA and R&A; to evaluate every golf DMD app and upgrade to ensure it comforms with the rules which will be very time consuming.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Yeah, but seems to me that there'd be no need to keep up with smart phone capabilities if the rule simply stated "DMD apps are legal", without the "...unless you also have app x y or z" installed" clause.

As I said in the other thread on this topic: Since the existing rules are already trusting us to not have any of those illegal apps installed if we're using a DMD, there's no reason they can't also trust us to just not use them if they *are* installed.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by turtleback

This seems like a silly decision to me.  First of all, knowing magnetic north doesn't seem like such valuable information.  Yes there may be a prevailing wind direction, but even in that instance the wind does shift direction during the day, so knowing where North is wouldn't necessarily tell you the direction of the wind.  Secondly, it is pretty easy to tell where North is most of the time from the position of the sun.  Heck, if the sun is out and you know the time (morning or afternoon) you can determine North by holding a club vertically - in the morning the shadow points west and in the afternoon the shadow points east.  Thirdly, if you have a course map or there is one on the scorecard it is absurdly easy to mark North on the map, which then tells you where North is no matter where on the course you are.

Some people think it's silly that you get penalized a full stroke just for accidentally bumping the ball and moving it an inch.  Both are simply part of the Rules of Golf.  You don't have to agree with them to play by them.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

The RBs' primary concern is to try and prevent technology from changing the game to such an extent that the player has virtually nothing to do.

If the technology gets onto the course, whether permitted or not, it will be used by those who have no respect for the intent of the game. Eventually inertia will make the use of the technology the norm and the game of judgement and skill we play will disappear.

Technology is going to change the game such that the player has nothing to do and skill will disappear? They still are always going to have to make a swing, unless you're envisioning robot surrogates out there on the course.

Yes, technology changes the game and and I'm fine with rules that try to limit that. All I'm saying is, make a well worded rule that succeeds in its intent. The current one does not, unless the intent was to ban most or all smart phones as DMDs.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Yeah, but seems to me that there'd be no need to keep up with smart phone capabilities if the rule simply stated "DMD apps are legal", without the "...unless you also have app x y or z" installed" clause.

As I said in the other thread on this topic: Since the existing rules are already trusting us to not have any of those illegal apps installed if we're using a DMD, there's no reason they can't also trust us to just not use them if they *are* installed.

You can't just issue a blanket statement for all DMD apps for all phones.  What is some apps like some rangefinders offer features that aren't legal, such as club suggestions or incorporate features such as compass and weather to determine wind speed.  Once you allow DMD apps, you're going to force the USGA and R&A; to evaluate every golf DMD app and upgrade to ensure it comforms with the rules which will be very time consuming.

True. Let me rephrase: The rule should state that "DMD apps are legal as long as that DMD app does not also contain non-conforming features". Currently the rule is "DMD apps are legal as long as the device it's being used on does not contain non-conforming features".  Those two statements are equivalent in the sense that it's trusting players to not use the non-conforming features.  But they're different in the sense that the current wording essentially bans most (if not all) smart phones for use as DMDs. If that's what they're trying to do then fine, make a rule that says that.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

This [disallowing a compass] seems like a silly decision to me...

Some people think it's silly that you get penalized a full stroke just for accidentally bumping the ball and moving it an inch.  Both are simply part of the Rules of Golf.  You don't have to agree with them to play by them.

And I just want to point out: Whether a compass should be legal is a separate issue than whether the smart phone rule is well worded or well thought out.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You can't just issue a blanket statement for all DMD apps for all phones.  What is some apps like some rangefinders offer features that aren't legal, such as club suggestions or incorporate features such as compass and weather to determine wind speed.  Once you allow DMD apps, you're going to force the USGA and R&A; to evaluate every golf DMD app and upgrade to ensure it comforms with the rules which will be very time consuming.

They have done that for laser range finders, have they? If so, then why can not they state that if app has illegal function then it is not conforming? No need to check anything.

Obeying rules is still as much players responsibility as not kicking the ball in rough.

[newtogolf]

The number of laser rangefinders is much lower than the number of golf gps apps for all the different mobile operating systems.  Also the product lifecycle for a laser rangefinder is at least a year where as apps are updated quite frequently and would need to be certified for each non-bug fix update to verify illegal functions have not been added.   It's a headache the USGA obviously doesn't have the resources to take on or wish to at this time.

Originally Posted by luu5

They have done that for laser range finders, have they? If so, then why can not they state that if app has illegal function then it is not conforming? No need to check anything.

Obeying rules is still as much players responsibility as not kicking the ball in rough.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The number of laser rangefinders is much lower than the number of golf gps apps for all the different mobile operating systems.  Also the product lifecycle for a laser rangefinder is at least a year where as apps are updated quite frequently and would need to be certified for each non-bug fix update to verify illegal functions have not been added.   It's a headache the USGA obviously doesn't have the resources to take on or wish to at this time.

Do you mean, that they test each laserfinder model for conformance?

[x129]

Not to be too flippant but is there any information that a smart phone can provide that a PGA caddie wouldn't provide to his player? Other than someone coming up with an aimpoint app that would tell you exactly where to aim and how hard, I don't think any of the current DMD functions really provide any more info.

Originally Posted by Rulesman

The RBs' primary concern is to try and prevent technology from changing the game to such an extent that the player has virtually nothing to do.

If the technology gets onto the course, whether permitted or not, it will be used by those who have no respect for the intent of the game. Eventually inertia will make the use of the technology the norm and the game of judgement and skill we play will disappear.

[jshots]

I'm telling you all they need to do is say that the golfer cannot be allowed to access anything other than distance information during a round but that doesn't mean you can't have other capabilities in the device.

That shouldn't mean your phone can't have a compass or a weather app, because everyone's does. It's already a game of integrity, no one is going to break that line of cheating just because they can now have access to a compass.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by luu5

Obeying rules is still as much players responsibility as not kicking the ball in rough.

This is something that is often overlooked during this discussion and I'm not sure why.  It was one of my prevailing points in the other thread before I eventually stopped following it.  Maybe somebody already did this and I simply forgot it, but I would like to hear a cogent argument made as to why the rules committee feels the need to legislate to the lowest common denominator (the dishonest cheater who would have a non-conforming app on his/her phone and use it) instead of leaving it in the rules that a person cannot use specific types of apps/functions of DMDs and leave it to the player to show honesty and integrity the same as they rely on us to do throughout so many other parts of the game?

Brandon