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trickymicky69

Greens with Bunkers in the Middle are Ridiculous

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I like the idea of a bunker in the middle of a green from a challenge perspective.

However, I won't hesitate to chip on the green if it is the best way to get par and I probably won't always pick the ball without taking some grass.

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Originally Posted by TitleistWI

I dont see what the big deal is.  If you hit your shot where you intend to, the bunker shouldnt be an issue.  All it does is penalize you for hitting to the wrong side of the green.


I think it's more than a penalty.   If the flag is mid right and you hit your ball mid left you're still on the green but you have a bunker between you and the hole.   Normally that wouldn't be that big a deal because I'd just pull out a wedge and hit either a lob or a two hopper.    Instead, now I'm on a green and I have to somehow putt my way around this nightmare.

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Originally Posted by GolfBear

I think it's more than a penalty.   If the flag is mid right and you hit your ball mid left you're still on the green but you have a bunker between you and the hole.   Normally that wouldn't be that big a deal because I'd just pull out a wedge and hit either a lob or a two hopper.    Instead, now I'm on a green and I have to somehow putt my way around this nightmare.

What a terrible thing!!!!!! Once or twice in a lifetime, if ever, you might play a course with a hole like this.

And then....to make matters even worse.......you hit a crap shot miles away from the pin and have to think of a creative way of getting to the hole.  To have the sort of shot you're talking about means that you aren't really even on the green because you are so far from the hole. It's a bit like whining about having a 60 yard put when you're on a double green on an Open course.

You hit it there. It's a shit shot. Now hit your next one.

A shot that goes on the green might be worse than one that's not on the green. Makes you understand that you have to at least try to be  a little precise off the tee.

Maybe one of those "worked" shots - a baby draw or a "high fade" that so many claim to be able to hit at will, or "on command" as one sandtrapper so modestly claimed.

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You don't have to putt. You pull a wedge and chip over the bunker. Sure you might take some grass but that is the course's problem not yours. If they wanted an easy to maintain green, they wouldn't put a bunker in the middle where people would be required to take wedge shots from the green.

Originally Posted by GolfBear

I think it's more than a penalty.   If the flag is mid right and you hit your ball mid left you're still on the green but you have a bunker between you and the hole.   Normally that wouldn't be that big a deal because I'd just pull out a wedge and hit either a lob or a two hopper.    Instead, now I'm on a green and I have to somehow putt my way around this nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Shorty

What a terrible thing!!!!!! Once or twice in a lifetime, if ever, you might play a course with a hole like this.

And then....to make matters even worse.......you hit a crap shot miles away from the pin and have to think of a creative way of getting to the hole.  To have the sort of shot you're talking about means that you aren't really even on the green because you are so far from the hole. It's a bit like whining about having a 60 yard put when you're on a double green on an Open course.

You hit it there. It's a shit shot. Now hit your next one.

A shot that goes on the green might be worse than one that's not on the green. Makes you understand that you have to at least try to be  a little precise off the tee.

Maybe one of those "worked" shots - a baby draw or a "high fade" that so many claim to be able to hit at will, or "on command" as one sandtrapper so modestly claimed.

Dude you really need to relax, maybe try some decaf?

You only need to miss a shot 30 feet to the left to be punished when you have a hazard in the middle of the green.  Tour pro's regularly miss greens to the left and right and 30 feet is a relatively mild miss.  If you're on the green you should have an opportunity to putt and still advance the ball near the hole.

Point is, if you normally miss 30 feet to the left, you're usually either on the green with a long putt, in a bunker or off the side of the green.  Two of the three options let you use a wedge to get it close, or perhaps even hole it.   If the balls on the green in a  donut bunker then chipping, pitching or blasting isn't an option.    You're forcing people to take a penalty putt because you can't (or at least you shouldn't) play a wedge from the green and you have ZERO chance of holing the putt.

I'm sorry if you disagree but that doesn't make your opinion correct.

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Originally Posted by x129

You don't have to putt. You pull a wedge and chip over the bunker. Sure you might take some grass but that is the course's problem not yours. If they wanted an easy to maintain green, they wouldn't put a bunker in the middle where people would be required to take wedge shots from the green.


Frankly, I'd rather have a course architect just put a giant buried elephant in the middle of the green and force you to make a really difficult read & putt.  Putting a bunker in the middle of the green just doesn't seem like solid course design.

It made me think of a course I played in Myrtle Beach.  There were railroad ties buried in the middle of the fairway with only a few feet sticking out.   You could hit a shot in the middle of the fairway and be completely blocked on your second shot.  Your only choice was to take a penalty (in the middle of the fairway) because they weren't movable.

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Originally Posted by trickymicky69

I don't know why but that made me piss myself laughing

Glad I could help.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Leap to illogical extremes much? :)

You know someone has already thought of that...I'd be shocked if they hadn't.  I'm betting that bastard Pete Dye will be the first.

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Originally Posted by GolfBear

You know someone has already thought of that...I'd be shocked if they hadn't.  I'm betting that bastard Pete Dye will be the first.

I know a course with a creek running between the two halves of a green. The green that's not got the hole in it is considered, by local rule, ground under repair from which you cannot play, and each half of the green is about 4000 square feet. So they're still big targets.

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Originally Posted by PastPerforance

The fact that any green would have a hazard in its design shouldn't be a problem. The idea when we hit onto the green, is to play to areas. Not just the whole green. The greens are just like the rest of the hole, meaning you can get out of position on a green just as you can get out of position on the fairway.

On your approach shot, you should be doing a couple of things during your pre-shot routine. The first is establishing your target, but also your landing spot itself. They are not the same. You want to leave yourself the best possible angle to the hole. Usually that is from below the hole, with as straight of a putt as is managable. However, sometimes that position is intentionally made to be an out of position spot. Designers use a lot of things to trip you up if you are not paying attention. That is one more reason almost everyone could use a better pre-shot routine.

While you are standing behind the ball checking all the variables, you know what conditions are dictating to you. Your choices are derived by those dictates. Perhaps a thin or fat lie is making your shot less than desireable, but you still have to hit that shot anyway. So you learn a few things, like what a partial swing does compared to a full swing. Things like how far the ball will release, given a cut or leaning the shaft more forward. They do different things to not only the flight, but to the run out as well.. Sometimes the best shot is NOT onto the green but to an opening, allowing the ball to roll-out into the desired position. So when you are looking at a green that has a trap, you know you don't want to have that trap between you and the hole. If the flag is located behind the trap, you had best error long. If it is in front of the trap, a short shot is your error spot. It isn't brasin surgery, but you do need to keep aware of conditions (and that trap location is just a condition) on every shot. That takes some mental toughness. But honing that pre-shot routine is what builds that mental focus. If you don't go down your entire checklist behind tha ball, your pre-shot routine feels off, just step back and start again.

A trap within the borders of a green may be seldomed played and strange to many, but with some logic, and focus, it shouldn't cause much of an issue.

This is exactly correct. The 16th at TPC of San Antonio is only 183 from the back tees and about 150 for us. If you are a reasonably low handicap golfer you should be able to aim to a spot with a 7-8 iron. These type of holes reward accurate shotmaking. Also, if you get into the bunker you have a reasonable chance at par.

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Mid-green bunker = gimmick. Not quite a windmill, but getting there.

Originally Posted by iacas

I know a course with a creek running between the two halves of a green. The green that's not got the hole in it is considered, by local rule, ground under repair from which you cannot play, and each half of the green is about 4000 square feet. So they're still big targets.

This is at least a reasonable solution, but it seems to me a sign that the course design is more about appearance than strategery. I guess it lets you mix up the hole day-to-day by placing the pin on one side or the other, but I'm not quite sure I see the point.

Even for the bunker in the middle, it seems more like style than substance. Ignore the fact that you're on the green and it's just the same as being on the wrong side of a greenside bunker and in some hardpan. It just pisses off the greenskeeper when he has to fix the divots.

(If they ban chipping from the green in this situation, then it's every bit as bad as a windmill. In that case, they should at least give you a bumper to carom your putt off.)

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Originally Posted by zeg

Mid-green bunker = gimmick. Not quite a windmill, but getting there.

This is at least a reasonable solution, but it seems to me a sign that the course design is more about appearance than strategery. I guess it lets you mix up the hole day-to-day by placing the pin on one side or the other, but I'm not quite sure I see the point.

Your point, is my point......

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As I mentioned in an earlier post, I played a hole like this on a weekly basis. In real life, you learn to miss on the side of the bunker with the pin. You might not be on the putting surface, but you could get up and down for your par. Even we high handicappers could handle that. If you did wind up on the green on the wrong side, it almost always cost you only one putt to be in a position to putt at the hole. Not that unusual of a penalty for an errant shot. I guess if I only played the course once, I would have been as sour on it as many of you are. But having to deal with it regularly, you just do and it becomes an interesting challenge during your round. And, of course, it is in the middle of the green for everybody, so you are not being unfairly picked on.

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Originally Posted by iacas

I know a course with a creek running between the two halves of a green. The green that's not got the hole in it is considered, by local rule, ground under repair from which you cannot play, and each half of the green is about 4000 square feet. So they're still big targets.

Gee, I thought having a water hazard on a green was a ridiculous logical leap.

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Originally Posted by parsnates

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I played a hole like this on a weekly basis. In real life, you learn to miss on the side of the bunker with the pin. You might not be on the putting surface, but you could get up and down for your par. Even we high handicappers could handle that. If you did wind up on the green on the wrong side, it almost always cost you only one putt to be in a position to putt at the hole. Not that unusual of a penalty for an errant shot. I guess if I only played the course once, I would have been as sour on it as many of you are. But having to deal with it regularly, you just do and it becomes an interesting challenge during your round. And, of course, it is in the middle of the green for everybody, so you are not being unfairly picked on.

i would pull out a wedge and chip over the bunker in a heartbeat before i wasted a stoke on a putt...and i wouldn't care if the greenskeeper or super was there watching. This is coming from a guy who repairs ball marks, fills divots and typically if i have time waiting on others will fill in a few others that people left. i do respect and take of my course but it you are dumb enough to put a bunker in the middle of a green i am dumb enough to chip over...but i would certainly replace the divot!!!!

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Originally Posted by WUTiger

I

Also, a "trap in the middle" puts other things into play. If you are on the green, with a trap between you and the flag -->    o  TRAP  |* ... What do you do?

I don't believe the rules of golf prevent you from taking out a lob wedge and popping the ball over the trap to the flag. (Any body know how rules would play here?)  But, the greenskeeper may be upset if you have a less-than-perfect swing and take a divot out of the carpet grass.

Worked for Lefty!

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