drop zone

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I've never encountered a course where it was supposed to be mandatory to use a drop zone as opposed to playing again from the previous spot.  I've played course were drop zones existed as a convenience, but never where it was required to use it, and especially never where you gained a distance advantage over where the ball entered the hazard.  I know that such do exist, but I've never played a course with one.  In the cases where I've used a drop zone, it only allowed you to move forward to some point near the edge of the hazard, but not beyond the point where the ball would have crossed the margin.

My previous club's course starts with par-3 which has a river running across. It is only 120 yards or so, but especially for novices it is scary opening hole.

There is a drop zone provided on the other side of the river, and actually almost on the other side of green for balls ending up in WH. You can of course drop on tee side of the river and pitch/chip, but hitting across river 30 yards to a green which is 10 feet higher is not for all novices. So I guess to make life a bit easier (and faster) there is a DZ. I am not sure if that DZ is used in all competitions, like national match play championships later this summer, but for regular play at least.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I don't doubt that considering your location. I don't think it's unreal to assume it varies due to regional differences. For example I recently played a course with ESA on every hole, no exaggeration. Much of it blind from the tee. It was my first time out on that course and the starter and rangers I encountered on the course were explicit. OB there, as instructed, means use best judgment to drop and move on without penalty of distance because they restrict those on the course from stomping on the habitat of the local wildlife and to do otherwise would slow play.  It was a spectacular course and we didn't mind. Drops and relief there were not a suggestion.

Read the ROG concerning drops. It's not vague. Local Rules are exactly that.

I don't play golf here.  I'm from Colorado, and I've played 99.9% of y golf there.  I've played plenty of courses with ESA's.  Most are designated as water hazards from which play is prohibited .  You drop under Rule 26-1 and play.  In the rare situation where an ESA is out of bounds, then you proceed under Rule 27 and play again from the previous spot.  In actuality, I would try to have some idea of how risky my shot was, and play a provisional ball if I was in any doubt.  That is why the option of a provisional ball exists, and it's a rule I use a lot.  If my ball disappears over a hill toward a questionable area, I play a  provisional even if I'm almost positive that it will be in play.  That ways I can save time and still play by the rules.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I don't play golf here.  I'm from Colorado, and I've played 99.9% of y golf there.  I've played plenty of courses with ESA's.  Most are designated as water hazards from which play is prohibited.  You drop under Rule 26-1 and play.  In the rare situation where an ESA is out of bounds, then you proceed under Rule 27 and play again from the previous spot.  In actuality, I would try to have some idea of how risky my shot was, and play a provisional ball if I was in any doubt.  That is why the option of a provisional ball exists, and it's a rule I use a lot.  If my ball disappears over a hill toward a questionable area, I play a  provisional even if I'm almost positive that it will be in play.  That ways I can save time and still play by the rules.

Have you ever played Thorncreek? With the canyon of homes and ESA that surrounds the course there it's easy to get in trouble. The ESA and OB situation there is somewhat difficult to navigate.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

Have you ever played Thorncreek? With the canyon of homes and ESA that surrounds the course there it's easy to get in trouble. The ESA and OB situation there is somewhat difficult to navigate.

Never played there.  I have played places like Breckenridge and Keystone where such ESA's exist, and all are marked as water hazards, usually lateral water hazards.  Anytime a  hazard is marked with a stake topped with green, it's an ESA, and play is prohibited.  Even entering it to get your ball is prohibited.  There are a couple at Fossil Trace too.   In all such cases, you play under Rule 26-1 with the exception that playing the ball as it lies is not an option.

[onesome]

The Couer de Alene course required players to drop on the floating green once they attempted and failed to land on the green with their second attempt, local rules say you lie four at the drop spot.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by onesome

The Couer de Alene course required players to drop on the floating green once they attempted and failed to land on the green with their second attempt, local rules say you lie four at the drop spot.

Even faster would be to pick up after the second attempt and write ESC...

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by luu5

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesome

The Couer de Alene course required players to drop on the floating green once they attempted and failed to land on the green with their second attempt, local rules say you lie four at the drop spot.

Even faster would be to pick up after the second attempt and write ESC...

Yeah but then you wouldn't get to ride the boat out to the green.

[CDNinATL]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I've never encountered a course where it was supposed to be mandatory to use a drop zone as opposed to playing again from the previous spot.  I've played course were drop zones existed as a convenience, but never where it was required to use it, and especially never where you gained a distance advantage over where the ball entered the hazard.  I know that such do exist, but I've never played a course with one.  In the cases where I've used a drop zone, it only allowed you to move forward to some point near the edge of the hazard, but not beyond the point where the ball would have crossed the margin.

Not necessarily mandatory but the Bobby Jones course here in Atlanta has a hole (3rd if I remember correctly) where you have to hit over creek type area and they have the drop zone past it right by the green. That's a par 3 of course but still it does put you closer to hole if you put in into the garbage area.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by CDNinATL

Not necessarily mandatory but the Bobby Jones course here in Atlanta has a hole (3rd if I remember correctly) where you have to hit over creek type area and they have the drop zone past it right by the green. That's a par 3 of course but still it does put you closer to hole if you put in into the garbage area.

I'm guessing that if he was alive today, Bobby Jones would remove his name from a course allowing such a travesty.

[ghalfaire]

I only know of one course I've ever played where the drop area MIGHT be closer to the hole than where your ball entered the hazard.  Maybe 10 yards best case and you're not required to use the drop area.  It is a Par 3 of about 160 yards (middle tees) to a peninsula green and the layout is such that the drop area is in about the only place it could be.

I have never seen an ESA that wasn't treated like a water hazard (usually lateral but not always).  You are not allowed to play out of them and many of them you are not even supposed to enter to retrieve your ball.

[joekelly]

I play a course that has a par 3 which abuts a fast flowing river, sometimes raging; 95% of the shot is over the water, 165 yds. The tee box is tiny, carved out of the rocky hillside.  Obviously many golfers fail and plop into the drink. The tee box has a large sign : ONE STROKE ONLY FROM THIS TEE BOX.   If your first shot swims, then you proceed to the 'drop zone' across the bridge, near the green. The drop zone moves according to the greenskeeper, but always across the bridge. Presumably if you take a second shot from the tee box, add a penalty stroke to your score. I have waited my turn at this tee and seen numerous golfers hit ball after ball into the river thus leaving the tee box a mud pit.  Read and accept the sign?  'Shit no man, not me.'  'I'm too special for this commoner treatment of advancing to the drop zone'.  Very tiring to be around such folks.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by joekelly

I play a course that has a par 3 which abuts a fast flowing river, sometimes raging; 95% of the shot is over the water, 165 yds. The tee box is tiny, carved out of the rocky hillside.  Obviously many golfers fail and plop into the drink. The tee box has a large sign : ONE STROKE ONLY FROM THIS TEE BOX.   If your first shot swims, then you proceed to the 'drop zone' across the bridge, near the green. The drop zone moves according to the greenskeeper, but always across the bridge. Presumably if you take a second shot from the tee box, add a penalty stroke to your score. I have waited my turn at this tee and seen numerous golfers hit ball after ball into the river thus leaving the tee box a mud pit.  Read and accept the sign?  'Shit no man, not me.'  'I'm too special for this commoner treatment of advancing to the drop zone'.  Very tiring to be around such folks.

This is a course design and a course management problem more than anything else. I am aware of nothing in the rules of Golf that would allow a local rule prohibiting a player from ever replaying his shot at a one stroke penalty.  My own personal solution would be to never play the course, since they have no regard for the Rules of Golf.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I am aware of nothing in the rules of Golf that would allow a local rule prohibiting a player from ever replaying his shot at a one stroke penalty.  .

At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke , play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 ), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by luu5

There is a drop zone provided on the other side of the river, and actually almost on the other side of green for balls ending up in WH. .

33-8/2

Local Rule Allows Drop on Green Side of Water Hazard When Ball Fails to Clear Hazard

Q. The design of a hole is such that a player must hit the ball about 100 yards in order to carry a water hazard. A Local Rule has been adopted to assist players who cannot drive over the hazard by allowing them to drop a ball, under penalty of two strokes, in a dropping zone that is located across the hazard. Is such a Local Rule authorized?

A. No. Such a Local Rule substantially alters Rule 26-1b as it allows the player to drop a ball on a part of the course (i.e., on the green side of the water hazard) that the Rule would not have permitted him to reach. Furthermore, the penalty for taking relief under the water hazard Rule (Rule 26) is one stroke, and may not be increased to two strokes by a Committee through a Local Rule - see Rule 33-8b .

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

33-8/2

Local Rule Allows Drop on Green Side of Water Hazard When Ball Fails to Clear Hazard

Q.The design of a hole is such that a player must hit the ball about 100 yards in order to carry a water hazard. A Local Rule has been adopted to assist players who cannot drive over the hazard by allowing them to drop a ball, under penalty of two strokes, in a dropping zone that is located across the hazard. Is such a Local Rule authorized?

A.No. Such a Local Rule substantially alters Rule 26-1b as it allows the player to drop a ball on a part of the course (i.e., on the green side of the water hazard) that the Rule would not have permitted him to reach. Furthermore, the penalty for taking relief under the water hazard Rule (Rule 26) is one stroke, and may not be increased to two strokes by a Committee through a Local Rule - see Rule 33-8b.

Perhaps they should put the river into a pipe...

[joekelly]

Most of you guys know that many courses are struggling financially and need daily players who enjoy the total experience.  The need to keep the course open and operational in critical for the local players. When posters here tell us that the golf course with the 'river water hole', mentioned above,  disregards the rules and need a spanking, that poster, IMO, is fast approaching the line which separates men who can see the real world and pompous, self-rightous arseholes.  What about those ESAs, do you ignore those rules too and tromp about through the bird nests and rabbit warrens just to preserve your dignity and thus 'follow the bible'?  Here 'bible' only refers to THE RULES OF GOLF, and not any religious text.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by joekelly

Most of you guys know that many courses are struggling financially and need daily players who enjoy the total experience.  The need to keep the course open and operational in critical for the local players. When posters here tell us that the golf course with the 'river water hole', mentioned above,  disregards the rules and need a spanking, that poster, IMO, is fast approaching the line which separates men who can see the real world and pompous, self-rightous arseholes.  What about those ESAs, do you ignore those rules too and tromp about through the bird nests and rabbit warrens just to preserve your dignity and thus 'follow the bible'?  Here 'bible' only refers to THE RULES OF GOLF, and not any religious text.

There are other solutions for a poorly designed hole.   They could permanently install an artificial mat at the extreme front edge of the tee box for the drop zone.  That wouldn't prohibit players from playing by the rules (they could even require that the second ball be played from this drop area "for the preservation of the course")   For casual play they could still have the across the river option for weaker players so they could cross over and play from an illegal "optional" drop area near the green if that was their choice.  They should still allow players who wished to play by the rules the option of doing so if it's at all possible.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by joekelly

Most of you guys know that many courses are struggling financially and need daily players who enjoy the total experience.  The need to keep the course open and operational in critical for the local players. When posters here tell us that the golf course with the 'river water hole', mentioned above,  disregards the rules and need a spanking, that poster, IMO, is fast approaching the line which separates men who can see the real world and pompous, self-rightous arseholes.  What about those ESAs, do you ignore those rules too and tromp about through the bird nests and rabbit warrens just to preserve your dignity and thus 'follow the bible'?  Here 'bible' only refers to THE RULES OF GOLF, and not any religious text.

I hope you feel better soon.

I thought this forum was about the Rules of Golf, don't shoot the messenger

Incidentally, it would seem that you had not noticed that the Rules of Golf specifically address entering ESAs where entry is prohibited.