Brandel Chamblee (Again) Calls for Tiger to Ditch Sean Foley

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by dennis6514

Do you think that video and technology (e.g. trackman) actually help people to learn or just get people confused? Do you think there are any negatives to getting too much feedback when learning golf?

No.  I think Trackman opens our minds to learning the game from more of a traditionalist 'feel' to an actual physics and mathematical based form of instruction.  In my mind, this is only going to help the game evolve and progress further.

[Henny Bogan]

I've been a very vocal and outspoken critic of whether or not I believe Tiger could win a major with this swing theory. I still have some doubts but he has certainly proven he can win regular tour events, and has made vast improvements over this last year or so.  So while I'm still among the doubters, I'm wavering a bit more than I was early this year.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

No.  I think Trackman opens our minds to learning the game from more of a traditionalist 'feel' to an actual physics and mathematical based form of instruction.  In my mind, this is only going to help the game evolve and progress further.

[Mr. Desmond]

After looking at Foley, watching his vids, and then seeing what he does with players, I have no idea about his swing "theories." But there are advantages to teaching with Trackman. I guess that is the key to teaching now - understanding the numbers and how they relate to various aspects of the swing plane - horizontal, vertical, et al. I have no idea other than path and face angle - more to learn.

Getting back to Tiger, I watched Tiger's swing over the weekend - his head moves back slightly, his arms are not dialed into his body on the downswing, the cut doesn't always cut - but I guess Tiger has more confidence and is making course corrections.

Tiger's driving distance and short game seems to be returning - maybe that's the key. Not getting into too much trouble off the tee and having a great short game.

Maybe I (we) expect too much from Tiger.

[Deryck Griffith]

Brandel Chamblee's Career......

Professional wins (2)

PGA Tour wins (1)

No.	Date	Tournament	Winning Score	Margin of Victory	Runner-up
1	Aug 30, 1998	Greater Vancouver Open	-19 (67-64-68-66=275)	3 strokes	Payne Stewart

Nationwide Tour wins (1)

No.	Date	Tournament	Winning Score	Margin of Victory	Runner-up
1	Jul 5, 1990	Ben Hogan New England Classic	-1 (68-78-69=215)	1 stroke	Jeff Maggert

Results in major championships

Tournament	1987	1988	1989	1990	1991	1992	1993	1994	1995	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001
The Masters	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	T18	DNP	DNP
U.S. Open	CUT	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	CUT	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	CUT	T46	T61	T44
The Open Championship	T66	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	CUT	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP
PGA Championship	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP	CUT	CUT	CUT	DNP	DNP	DNP	DNP

Nuff said.....

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

Brandel Chamblee's Career......

Professional wins (2)

PGA Tour wins (1)

No.

Date

Tournament

Winning Score

Margin of Victory

Runner-up

1

Aug 30, 1998

Greater Vancouver Open

-19 (67-64-68-66=275)

3 strokes

Payne Stewart

Nationwide Tour wins (1)

No.

Date

Tournament

Winning Score

Margin of Victory

Runner-up

1

Jul 5, 1990

Ben Hogan New England Classic

-1 (68-78-69=215)

1 stroke

Jeff Maggert

Results in major championships

Tournament

1987

1988

1989

1990

1991

1992

1993

1994

1995

1996

1997

1998

1999

2000

2001

The Masters

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

T18

DNP

DNP

U.S. Open

CUT

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

CUT

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

CUT

T46

T61

T44

The Open Championship

T66

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

CUT

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

PGA Championship

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

CUT

CUT

CUT

DNP

DNP

DNP

DNP

Nuff said.....

You don't have to have playing ability to have knowledge, but regardless ... that is a pretty unimpressive Major record.  I count 1 Masters, 2 British Opens, 3 PGA's and 6 US Opens over 15 years.  Yuck.  And of those 12 majors, only 5 made cuts.

P.S.  Just to clarify, I am not defending Chamblee or suggesting that he does possess knowledge ... just saying that the lack of a solid playing career does not preclude him from having to ability to possess knowledge.  (His ignorance might, but not his playing ability)  The inverse is also true ... just because you had a stellar playing career, it does not mean you automatically know everything, two obvious cases in point there ... Johnny Miller and Nick Faldo.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

You don't have to have playing ability to have knowledge, but regardless ... that is a pretty unimpressive Major record.  I count 1 Masters, 2 British Opens, 3 PGA's and 6 US Opens over 15 years.  Yuck.  And of those 12 majors, only 5 made cuts.

P.S.  Just to clarify, I am not defending Chamblee or suggesting that he does possess knowledge ... just saying that the lack of a solid playing career does not preclude him from having to ability to possess knowledge.  (His ignorance might, but not his playing ability)  The inverse is also true ... just because you had a stellar playing career, it does not mean you automatically know everything, two obvious cases in point there ... Johnny Miller and Nick Faldo.

I hear what you are saying.  I guess the point I'm trying to make is along the lines of how can someone be so incredible critical of others (specifically Foley and the greatest player to arguably ever live) on how they approach the swing when HIS method of the way to do things resulted in such a basic career?

I'm willing to bet (not that it could happen) if Sean Foley or someone with a similar approach to the swing "coached' Chamblee during his career and brought things to his attention that he is conveniently criticizing now, he would have done better as a professional and maybe won more.

These "new" teachers that Chamblee describes (Foley, our friends at 5SK, etc) are only bringing facts to the golf swing that MEAN something.  The information being taught is not "false." The ironic thing is that some of information that the "old school" teaching community taught was "false."

Tiger is a big boy and knows his limitations.  I am sure Tiger pushes back onto Foley on certain things that he may not be comfortable with and in those cases, I am sure Foley would back off.  It's ok to bring forward opinions, but to harp on it to the extent Chamblee has is unnecessary.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

After looking at Foley, watching his vids, and then seeing what he does with players, I have no idea about his swing "theories." But there are advantages to teaching with Trackman. I guess that is the key to teaching now - understanding the numbers and how they relate to various aspects of the swing plane - horizontal, vertical, et al. I have no idea other than path and face angle - more to learn.

Getting back to Tiger, I watched Tiger's swing over the weekend - his head moves back slightly, his arms are not dialed into his body on the downswing, the cut doesn't always cut - but I guess Tiger has more confidence and is making course corrections.

Tiger's driving distance and short game seems to be returning - maybe that's the key. Not getting into too much trouble off the tee and having a great short game.

Maybe I (we) expect too much from Tiger.

His short game is certainly back on track, especially hitting his wedges with the right distance and spin. But I still wonder about his driving. In the seven holes he has played so far in the 4th round, he has yet to even come close to hitting a fairway, but Torrey Pines is very forgiving in that regard if you miss the fairway on the corrrect side. They showed a stat yesterday of his standing in fairways hit in the years that he has won at Torrey Pines and he averages somewhere like 60th. Apparently he knows he can miss fairways at Torrey, so I want to see how he drives it elsewhere before I decide he is out of the woods (no pun intended).

[colin007]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Getting back to Tiger, I watched Tiger's swing over the weekend - his head moves back slightly, his arms are not dialed into his body on the downswing, the cut doesn't always cut - but I guess Tiger has more confidence and is making course corrections.

Tiger's driving distance and short game seems to be returning - maybe that's the key. Not getting into too much trouble off the tee and having a great short game.

i noticed that too...his head moved back a good 2 inches on one of his drives, caddie view.

the distance is there, irons are drilled powerfully.

[Zwick]

Originally Posted by phan52

His short game is certainly back on track, especially hitting his wedges with the right distance and spin. But I still wonder about his driving. In the seven holes he has played so far in the 4th round, he has yet to even come close to hitting a fairway, but Torrey Pines is very forgiving in that regard if you miss the fairway on the corrrect side. They showed a stat yesterday of his standing in fairways hit in the years that he has won at Torrey Pines and he averages somewhere like 60th. Apparently he knows he can miss fairways at Torrey, so I want to see how he drives it elsewhere before I decide he is out of the woods (no pun intended).

The bold part is simply wrong. He missed 1 and 2 badly, 4 on the correct side and not by much. But pummled it down the 5th and 7th and barely was in the rough on 6. While that is wellbelow his play off the tee during the first three rounds, its not much below average for the field. I have rarely seen him drive it so accurate and long for a whole tournament. And in this newfound length he can always hit a wood out there if the fairways are narrow. But of course you got a point there, in theory it's always easy but he first has to deliver.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Zwick

The bold part is simply wrong. He missed 1 and 2 badly, 4 on the correct side and not by much. But pummled it down the 5th and 7th and barely was in the rough on 6. While that is wellbelow his play off the tee during the first three rounds, its not much below average for the field. I have rarely seen him drive it so accurate and long for a whole tournament. And in this newfound length he can always hit a wood out there if the fairways are narrow. But of course you got a point there, in theory it's always easy but he first has to deliver.

What are you talking about?!?!  He was in the first cut on #2.

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

I hear what you are saying.  I guess the point I'm trying to make is along the lines of how can someone be so incredible critical of others (specifically Foley and the greatest player to arguably ever live) on how they approach the swing when HIS method of the way to do things resulted in such a basic career?

I'm willing to bet (not that it could happen) if Sean Foley or someone with a similar approach to the swing "coached' Chamblee during his career and brought things to his attention that he is conveniently criticizing now, he would have done better as a professional and maybe won more.

These "new" teachers that Chamblee describes (Foley, our friends at 5SK, etc) are only bringing facts to the golf swing that MEAN something.  The information being taught is not "false." The ironic thing is that some of information that the "old school" teaching community taught was "false."

Tiger is a big boy and knows his limitations.  I am sure Tiger pushes back onto Foley on certain things that he may not be comfortable with and in those cases, I am sure Foley would back off.  It's ok to bring forward opinions, but to harp on it to the extent Chamblee has is unnecessary.

Agreed.

His lack of knowledge could certainly pertain to his playing ability, but his career results aren't the cause of his lack of knowledge.  And based on things we hear from Faldo or Miller, it seems like the lack of knowledge isn't a cause for a poor playing career either.  Three things are true about Chamblee, in my opinion:  1)  He doesn't know nearly as much as he thinks he knows.  2) He did not have a very impressive career.  3) Those 2 things really aren't related.

[Mr. Desmond]

Has anyone else noticed that Tiger seems less bulky this year?

He looks almost lanky.

Maybe that's the key...

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Has anyone else noticed that Tiger seems less bulky this year?

He looks almost lanky.

Maybe that's the key...

He's eating out less these days and isn't hitting the 'Y' that much.

[Mr. Desmond]

Back to Foley, I'm not that impressed after almost 3 years.

Lots of good things - swing is more steep, club looks good at top.

But it seems the downswing becomes disconnected from the body at points.

And then his right arm seems to cross over the left very soon -I expected more TGM and  center pivot patterns.

I wish them the best but if this is it - Jack may have no worries.

[carrx]

Chamblee is paid to give his opinion on golf, and golfers.  In my opinion, that means his career has been pretty successful.  I'm not intent on defending Chamblee, but I never see Chamblee as critical of Tiger, just the choices he's made with respect to his golf swing.  A "why mess with what works" is a sensible approach for many folks, and it clearly "worked" with Butch Harmon.

I'm also a fan of the Foley swing.  Some of the best swings on tour (again, my opinion) are Foley coached players, including Tiger's "new" swing.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by carrx

I'm also a fan of the Foley swing.  Some of the best swings on tour (again, my opinion) are Foley coached players, including Tiger's "new" swing.

I might agree with you if Tiger's swing looked like Hunter Mahan's - if Hunter only had more short game.

I mean, does it take 3 years for the best golfer in the world to learn an inconsistent cut?

Seriously?

[colin007]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

He's eating out less these days and isn't hitting the 'Y' that much.

Oh, snap!!!

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by colin007

Oh, snap!!!

Not going there ...

Tiger drives better when he goes with a smooth push draw.