Shaping the Ball

[Gunther]

I too, have a question. I can cut my woods and hybrids, no problem. Line up left, open club face and voila, cut (sometimes too much). Irons, however, I CAN NOT do it. I have a natural draw tendency with them which is great 90% of the time but those odd times when I'd like to cut a 7 iron around a tree or something, it's so frustrating that I can't because I understand conceptually how it's done, it just doesn't work. Without a swing video, do you think it has something to do with a steeper iron swing vs. a more sweeping wood swing? I've tried for years and haven't been able to crack this nut.

[mvmac]

I too, have a question. I can cut my woods and hybrids, no problem. Line up left, open club face and voila, cut (sometimes too much).

Irons, however, I CAN NOT do it. I have a natural draw tendency with them which is great 90% of the time but those odd times when I'd like to cut a 7 iron around a tree or something, it's so frustrating that I can't because I understand conceptually how it's done, it just doesn't work.

What happens when you try to cut it? Does it draw, stay straight, not cut enough? How are the start lines?

[Gunther]

What happens when you try to cut it? Does it draw, stay straight, not cut enough? How are the start lines?

A variety of things, most often a pull along my body alignment. Somewhat frequently a weak push slice. It's weird.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Note that the graphic there is relative to your body alignment. A push-fade is a perfectly playable shot that can finish at the target if you aim left enough, ain't that right Mr. Trevino? And a pull-draw can work too, right Mr. Snead? Delivered loft and other things are going to be VERY different with a massive pull-draw versus a push draw.

Ok. I understand delivered loft will be different between a pull draw and a push draw. What if I play a "massive" pull draw with a 14* (or even 16*) Driver as compared to a push draw with a 10* or 12* Driver? Could the extra driver loft counteract the delofting the pull vs push will cause?

[iacas]

Ok. I understand delivered loft will be different between a pull draw and a push draw. What if I play a "massive" pull draw with a 14* (or even 16*) Driver as compared to a push draw with a 10* or 12* Driver?

Could the extra driver loft counteract the delofting the pull vs push will cause?

Okay, but what's the point in discussing that kind of thing? You're going to need more loft on every club you've got, and even then you're hitting the ball less flush. And your example was pretty darn extreme - a 16° driver ain't gonna cut it.

[mvmac]

A variety of things, most often a pull along my body alignment. Somewhat frequently a weak push slice. It's weird.

Hmmm, not sure, I wonder if your stock draw is already a little bit of a pull draw. Would have to see a swing to confirm.

[Gunther]

Hmmm, not sure, I wonder if your stock draw is already a little bit of a pull draw. Would have to see a swing to confirm.

I figured it would be tough to definitely identify without a video but also thought the steep swing vs a sweep swing might hold some water...evidently not. Thanks Mike.

[Hatchman]

Going keep my eye on this discussion for the cause and effects as I study LWS further. Currently setting up slightly closed to target then smooth pull feeling to the right as a lefty.

[newtogolf]

Is there a way you can control at what point the ball starts to fade or draw?  For example (right handed golfer), you're in front of a tree on the left side of the fairway you would want to hit a push draw to the right of the tree but have it draw sooner so it stays on the fairway and goes further down it.  Almost similar to the shot Bubba hit during the Masters when he was in the trees on the right side.

[mvmac]

Is there a way you can control at what point the ball starts to fade or draw?  For example (right handed golfer), you're in front of a tree on the left side of the fairway you would want to hit a push draw to the right of the tree but have it draw sooner so it stays on the fairway and goes further down it.  Almost similar to the shot Bubba hit during the Masters when he was in the trees on the right side.

For something like that that you would just add "more draw". Play the ball further back, maybe aim a little more right but still aim the face where you want it to start. That's what Bubba did, he hit a big pull draw. "Pull" meaning the ball started right of where his body was aimed.

[inthehole]

my success rate when trying to work the ball is /emoticons/c2_beer.gif"/> )...

[Triggers]

my success rate when trying to work the ball is <25%.    I know how to do it ... I just can't execute it.   It goes straight pretty much whatever I do, which is usually good, except for those few times when it's necessary to try and move the ball.    Bottom line for me - I play exponentially more than I practice - I'm not going to try and shape it until I really spend a lot of time practicing it (which is probably never knowing me... its so much fun when it works though )...

Kind of in a similar boat, I'm curious how consistent your natural flight path is?

Great read in terms of execution, but I definitely would need to work at it. When I'm on the course, sometimes I think "would be cool if I could draw it around this bend here.." and it's about 50/50 if it works, but that is just a feel thing not really thinking about specific cues to produce that.

A combination of proper execute and visualizing the shot might work a little better :)

Thanks for the post iacas

[newtogolf]

For something like that that you would just add "more draw". Play the ball further back, maybe aim a little more right but still aim the face where you want it to start. That's what Bubba did, he hit a big pull draw. "Pull" meaning the ball started right of where his body was aimed.

Thanks Mike, I'll work on it.

my success rate when trying to work the ball is <25%.    I know how to do it ... I just can't execute it.   It goes straight pretty much whatever I do, which is usually good, except for those few times when it's necessary to try and move the ball.    Bottom line for me - I play exponentially more than I practice - I'm not going to try and shape it until I really spend a lot of time practicing it (which is probably never knowing me... its so much fun when it works though )...

You really have to practice working the ball to gain comfort and confidence doing it.

Part of my practice involves using a flag at 100 yards as my reference point.  I work on draws by making sure the ball passes the flag on the left and lands to the right and on fades by having the ball pass the flag on the right and fading to the left of it.  It has taken quite a bit of practice to gain consistency and confidence so that I would attempt those shots on the course.  My natural ball flight is fairly straight or a very slight draw.

It has helped me on the course, on one particular shot I was in a fairway bunker on the right side of the fairway that was blocked out by trees.  I started the ball to the left of the trees and using a draw I was able to put the ball on the green and birdie the hole.  Without being able to hit that shot I would have at best bogeyed the hole.

[mvmac]

my success rate when trying to work the ball is <25%.    I know how to do it ... I just can't execute it.   It goes straight pretty much whatever I do, which is usually good, except for those few times when it's necessary to try and move the ball.    Bottom line for me - I play exponentially more than I practice - I'm not going to try and shape it until I really spend a lot of time practicing it (which is probably never knowing me... its so much fun when it works though )...

Yeah the only time I try to "work" the ball is if I have to. 95% of the time I'm just trying to hit my stock shot/curve.

It can be fun to practice on the range, sometime I'll just experiment with hitting big curves, different trajectories.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I think I was being quite extreme with my example of my current setup being 30* closed and swinging 25* across my body (left). Here is my setup from my range session today. Left green alignment stick is my stance. Middle green stick is my target line. The white sticks are where I'm "envisioning" my club path. I'm only standing about 15* closed to target at most.

[saevel25]

I think I was being quite extreme with my example of my current setup being 30* closed and swinging 25* across my body (left).

Here is my setup from my range session today. Left green alignment stick is my stance. Middle green stick is my target line. The white sticks are where I'm "envisioning" my club path.

I'm only standing about 15* closed to target at most.

You mean the 6.2 degrees you stand closed and the 5.5 degrees you swing across your body alignment?

You are over-estimating how much you aim right to your target line by at least double. One of the classic sayings on the forum, "Feel isn't real".

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

[URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/128491/] [/URL] You mean the 6.2 degrees you stand closed and the 5.5 degrees you swing across your body alignment?  You are over-estimating how much you aim right to your target line by at least double. One of the classic sayings on the forum, "Feel isn't real".

Not 100% sure HOW you got the actual degrees, but let's assume they are fact. Back to my initial question in this thread. If I stand 6* right and swing 5* left (making my club path about 1* right of target) and get my club head square or slightly closed, I'm good to go, right? Playable?

[saevel25]

Not 100% sure HOW you got the actual degrees, but let's assume they are fact.

Copied and pasted the image into AutoCAD, computer drafting program. Then just drew lines over the alignment sticks. If you just move the lines so they cross you can get the angle. They are fact. Well maybe they are off by a fraction of a degree.