Should we ditch the 'swing of a thousand positions'?

[ChrisGSZ]

WADESWORLD - many thanks for the connection...  I checked out Shawn and was impressed. I'll contact him because I'm putting together an international network of teachers who teach in this way. The analysis I've just published backs up their methods strongly so they can use it to add credibility to their methods (not that they probably need it...).

Your other point about being able to learn and achieve high standards through club manipulation is of course true. After all, most of us were taught that way. The essential point is that it's slow and frustrating, because it's working against our natural, innate learning systems. We might get there in the end - top players obviously do - through sheer repetition. It's the repetition that improves us - not the specific technique we're repeating... We have decades of research from other sports to show this.

The problem with a detailed technique approach is that it creates 'internal focus'. Sports psychologists in many sports know that internal focus destroys performance.

[soon_tourpro]

Your other point about being able to learn and achieve high standards through club manipulation is of course true. After all, most of us were taught that way. The essential point is that it's slow and frustrating, because it's working against our natural, innate learning systems. We might get there in the end - top players obviously do - through sheer repetition. It's the repetition that improves us - not the specific technique we're repeating... We have decades of research from other sports to show this. The problem with a detailed technique approach is that it creates 'internal focus'. Sports psychologists in many sports know that internal focus destroys performance.

Top players learn what impact is and how to get there in spite of golf instruction. That is one reason you see so many strange swing on tour due to those guys learned impact in thier own way. The golf swing lacks definition, if you ask a golf trainer to define it, they simply cant. There is a few things that has to happen in order that always happen in any golf swing system due to how the body is made and functions. I know how to define that with feel plus evidence so the individual knows what they do when they do it right will happen. Detailed swing instruction aka technique focus slows down the learning process, makes people loose feel and not training feel is a huge mistake. Detailed instruction is common in school, repetition also, you can learn faster with the same amount of practice time if you know how to go about it as described in the talent code. Most are highly uncomfortable with feel based instruction, once they hit it flush and longer and more straight they will go back to what they did before due to friends pressure them or beacuse it dosnt feel its the way to learn it and delete they hit the ball the way a pro does. People believe they can understand it as they have some idea from TV, a book or a Internet forum. Brain and body dont work that way.

[soon_tourpro]

The essential pont is that we learn best unconsciously - not consciously thinking our way through technical positions. No other sport coaches via positions - yet in golf we've become addicted to it. In answer to SOON-TOURPRO, science DOES know how to train 'feel' - it has a fancy scientific name, but essentially its system we used when we learned to walk, ride bikes and tie shoelaces - we weren't coached through positions - we just 'did it' - unconsciously. I really like AMAZINGWHACKERS comment of using video to validate what a feel - this is exactly how the body learns best!

One challenge - take 5 golfers and do that science and see how you do in 3 weeks. 3 sessions a week. using video to validate feel isnt how the body learns best. The body has already learned the feel and using video to validate the feel without knowing if your doing things right (kinetic chain for example) can be a good way of you know lure oneself into beliveing one does things right without knowing if its right. I seen a ton of PGA instructors use video and the player cant play golf in spite of it. My sisters kid hit 60 shots, way fat up to 4inches behind the ball, he became upset, frustrated and angry even, after a cool down with phone and facebook, I said some things, he adjusted and hit one shot and flushed it, and I looked at him and said, that is how a pro hits it every time and that is how a pro hit feels like. I smiled, he was in shock. He stopped hitting shots fat.

[logman]

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

One challenge - take 5 golfers and do that science and see how you do in 3 weeks.

3 sessions a week.

using video to validate feel isnt how the body learns best.

The body has already learned the feel and using video to validate the feel without knowing if your doing things right (kinetic chain for example) can be a good way of you know lure oneself into beliveing one does things right without knowing if its right.

I seen a ton of PGA instructors use video and the player cant play golf in spite of it.

My sisters kid hit 60 shots, way fat up to 4inches behind the ball, he became upset, frustrated and angry even, after a cool down with phone and facebook, I said some things, he adjusted and hit one shot and flushed it, and I looked at him and said, that is how a pro hits it every time and that is how a pro hit feels like.

I smiled, he was in shock.

He stopped hitting shots fat.

This is heresy, on this site. You're risking a ban with all this "fancy" talk.

[David in FL]

One challenge - take 5 golfers and do that science and see how you do in 3 weeks. 3 sessions a week. using video to validate feel isnt how the body learns best. The body has already learned the feel and using video to validate the feel without knowing if your doing things right (kinetic chain for example) can be a good way of you know lure oneself into beliveing one does things right without knowing if its right. I seen a ton of PGA instructors use video and the player cant play golf in spite of it. My sisters kid hit 60 shots, way fat up to 4inches behind the ball, he became upset, frustrated and angry even, after a cool down with phone and facebook, I said some things, he adjusted and hit one shot and flushed it, and I looked at him and said, that is how a pro hits it every time and that is how a pro hit feels like. I smiled, he was in shock. He stopped hitting shots fat.

You're absolutely right! I hit a perfectly flush 6 iron 2 years ago and immediately recognized what it felt like. I haven't missed a single shot since.

[soon_tourpro]

This is heresy, on this site. You're risking a ban with all this "fancy" talk.

Well the golf motion is undefined. cant cheat body physics or compensation happens which slows down the swing. some get so passionate about theory that they simply forget that feel creates all things we do in sports. You do need a good structure and definition while learning or else you risk falling into the swingcrack camp.

[Clambake]

ChrisGSZ, you indicate you've published the results of your works.   Would you mind pointing us to a link for the study?   I'd be curious (and probably others would be too) in seeing the science behind me.    Can't help it....it's the engineering part of my past that likes to dig into the research and not just the results!

[ChrisGSZ]

Sure.... Go to http://www.thegolfswingzone.com. You'll find a brief scientific summary there. There are also some downloadable chapters. Or - you can 'Look Inside' the book on Amazon.

The full bibliography is in an appendix in the book.

On this forum, I'm just hoping to help people by contributing a little science to debates - science really does work....

Cheers.....

[cipher]

See, I knew there was a book to sell.  Haha ;)

[newtogolf]

Sports scientist that writes books for profit uncovers secrets to golf swing that will drop your handicap in no time....been there done that.

[colin007]

sigh...this again?

[ChrisGSZ]

All science is published...  research that isn't disseminated is wasted. I mentioned it because I was asked. I'm actually retired - I'm now following my passion for golf - playing more - and using my science skills to contribute where I can.

[soon_tourpro]

ChrisGSZ, you indicate you've published the results of your works.   Would you mind pointing us to a link for the study?   I'd be curious (and probably others would be too) in seeing the science behind me.    Can't help it....it's the engineering part of my past that likes to dig into the research and not just the results!

Quoting the website, these are the skills needed. An external mental focus An accurate clubhead path through impact A coordinated muscular (biokinetic) chain A tight initial downswing radius A passive release of the wrists The problem still is the human being as well they do read and apply dont make it work in spite how good it might be, just look at five easy lessons the Ben Hogan book and people cant do it from the book. Do things in person as in a lesson is easy as you can provide proper feedback to the player. Helping them adjust to the task in how their muscles act during the swing and where their perceptions are. Reading a book trying to apply that and it wont matter how good it is as it just dont work. in the above skills quoted I dont disagree with them as they all happen in a good golfswing. People still learn the way they think they need to learn and new knowledge seldom alter that as they continue to use the same approach they learned to use. You could also say: 1. Swing to target. (external mental focus) 2. Inside down and out swing path positive angle of attack (Accurate path of clubhead). 3. Proper tempo and rythm ( kinetic chain cordination) 4. Drop into the slot using a half turn with pelvis motion (initial tight radius) 5. Release clothline or puckrelease. (passive release of the wrists) Science only shows us what we already know. It also tends to not be as effective as it also deletes other information bits especially if they contradict the science.

[WUTiger]

Originally Posted by ChrisGSZ

The essential pont is that we learn best unconsciously - not consciously thinking our way through technical positions. No other sport coaches via positions - yet in golf we've become addicted to it.

To HOGANWOODS - actually the golf swing consists of just four key movement skills -

Learning unconsciously and key movement skills remind me of how Manuel de la Torre and Ernest Jones approached to the golf swing. Their idea was to use the club to move the ball toward the target. Emphasis was on correct motion - not static positions - and allowing the subconscious to guide the swing toward the target.

Heartland Golf Schools, including the one in St. Louis area, teach this method.

http://heartlandgolfschools.com/about_us.php

I don't use the method, but I've met school graduates who really like the approach.

-----------

And, I've noticed a change in more traditional instructors too. The pro who helped me re-do my swing a couple of years ago comes to mind. About 75% of the time when I'd ask a technical question about some part of my swing, he would say, "Don't go there... you're close enough on your own."

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

My sisters kid hit 60 shots, way fat up to 4inches behind the ball, he became upset, frustrated and angry even, after a cool down with phone and facebook, I said some things, he adjusted and hit one shot and flushed it, and I looked at him and said, that is how a pro hits it every time and that is how a pro hit feels like.

I smiled, he was in shock.

He stopped hitting shots fat.

What?

[Datsyuk]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

What?

Are you struggling because you hit too many fat shots? Stop hitting all those fat shots. You're welcome.

[AmazingWhacker]

Originally Posted by Datsyuk

Are you struggling because you hit too many fat shots? Stop hitting all those fat shots. You're welcome.

Awesome tip!  I struggle with thin shots, though - any ideas for those?

[David in FL]

Awesome tip!  I struggle with thin shots, though - any ideas for those?

Ooh ooh ooh....... ......I've got this one! ;-)