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Minimum swing speed for ProV1 or ProV1x


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I can't play Pro v1 because I've ready so many freaking posts about them and who should hit them and who shouldn't, and spin rates and swing speeds that as soon as I tee one up I'm flooded with swing thoughts, get paralyzed and inevitably hook or slice it.

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  • 2 years later...

I played Locust Hill in the ROC this year and literally couldn't use any ball except Pro v1.  The other balls wouldn't stop on the lightening fast greens. 

Also, got my first hole in one with a Pro v1x.  150 yard 8 iron.

Edited by lewburg
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If you don't consistently hit down and through the ball, compression and ball firmness isn't really a huge factor IMO.  I couldn't truly tell the difference between the flight charactaristics of a ProV1 and a NXT tour level ball (for example) until i was a scratch player. Just play with something you like the feel of around the greens. If that happens to be a ProV, then go for it. 

Edited by Groucho Valentine
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I have two boxes of ProV1s I still use to practice pitching, chipping, and little lob shots. They stick like Velcro. However, using a full swing I felt they were much too hard. I lost about 1/2 a club to a full club (or lost them right) so I stopped playing them. That was two summers ago, and I no longer have a slice, so I might try them again this year.

In my opinion, I don't think a beginner should play with this ball. At least this was my experience. When I switched to softer golf balls (like NXT, e6, and Volvik) I was able to stay in play and have more fun - and my scores dropped. The only reason I bought ProV1 when I started was because of ignorance. 

 

 

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I prefer the v1x over the v1.  Not so much about swing speed but performance.  The v1x holds its line a little tighter for me, a little more height without side spin but a little shorter.  I like it around the greens like many do.  Putting, it rolls very nice too.

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On 10/13/2013 at 7:56 AM, Mondamo said:

There are many more factors to consider. Prov 1 and x are incredible balls. The truth is compression is not as much a factor as it used to be. You might gain yardage with a lower compression but studies say about four yards lost or signed. The critical issue is workability around the greens where most of the ake is played. Also...swing speed changes with every club. Working around the green...say...100 yards out, you wouldn't be using a speed of 100 . It's a common mistake to only concentrate on driver distance as the lower compression alls may go a few rads longer but not good around the greens. Titlest would be out of business if they only produced balls for high swing speed I have played probably every ball over the years and I keep coming back to the pro v's. I have a slw swing speed and in testing other balls I don't seem to lse distance but the performance around the greens is premier. Again..the idea that slow swing speeds can't hit a tour ball is incorrect. Bridgestone commercials say we can't hit those balls with a slw swing speed..they want to promote their product and would love to get the pro v market. So..long winded....there's more to consider about your game. At best you use your driver maybe 12 times a round.....what about the rest? Good luck

I'm going to jump in here and provide some information that I hope will be helpful.  I've seen a lot of incorrect or misinterpreted statements being thrown around, and I'm not responding to Mr. Mondano specifically, just want to cut through the b.s. and share some facts.

My information is based on real-world experience, having spent the last 9 1/2 years as a golf ball and equipment technician and working with literally thousands of players of all abilities.  This isn't information that I read somewhere or overheard someone else say it...I did this for a living full time for almost a decade.  

The fact is, compression does make a difference.  When a golf ball is struck with a driver or other long club, a large force is applied to the ball which flattens and deforms it.  The energy from impact is stored in the ball.  When deformation reaches it's peak, the ball will seek to restore itself to its original shape.  This is what causes to ball to rocket off the clubface.

If a ball is too firm for a player's swing speed, the ball won't deform adequately and will not store as much energy which will cause a loss of performance.

Some other facts worth noting:

  • Most players are not playing the best ball for their game.  At least 80% of players have room to improve their launch conditions.
  • As Mr. Mondano noted, swing speed changes depending on which club is being used.  Just because Bridgestone does their fitting using a driver doesn't mean they don't work as well with irons or wedges.  That would be like saying Titleist recommends ball testing by starting around the green and working backwards, so Titleist balls only work with a wedge. The reason Bridgestone uses a driver for fitting sessions is because the driver reveals a player's tendencies.  It's the club that has the most violent interaction with the ball, and any issues are more pronounced.  The loft and spin generated with a wedge will mask certain aspects of how well a ball fits a player.
  • Spin can be your friend or your enemy.  Most players want more spin, but it's not about playing a ball that has the most spin...it's about having the correct spin.
  • The idea that there is only 4 yards of difference between all golf balls, or the golf balls in Titleist's line is misleading.  It's possible if the robotic hitting machine was configured a certain way to maybe have all their models go about the same distance, but the idea that they have high compression models, low compression models, 2-piece, 3-piece, 4-piece models, urethane covered high spin models and Surlyn covered low spin models with different dimple patterns...and they all are within 4 yards of each other?  A high compression 4-piece urethane covered high spin ball like the Pro V1x and a low compression 2-piece low spinning Surlyn covered ball like the TruSoft are on different ends of the spectrum.  It's about as opposite as you can get, and there is only 4 yards max difference in distance?  I'm skeptical.  What I can prove is when real players are involved, the distance difference can be significant.  A player using the absolute wrong ball can legitimately see 25 yards of difference compared to a properly fit ball.  This is an example of how much difference just one aspect of a player's launch can make:

Spin-Spin vs Launch vs Distance_c.png

The only difference in the top example is the launch angle.  There is a 12 yard difference.  The bottom example shows how much difference only lowering the spin will make.  16 yards.  By the way, most players launch the ball too low and spin the ball way too much.

Obviously, the Pro V1 and Pro V1x are the best selling models on the market, so naturally when I tested players the large majority of them were playing one or the other, so I have a lot of experience with how that ball works and the numbers that are generated by amateurs.  Quite honestly, it's not a good fit for most players.  A high percentage of players can't compress it correctly, they launch it too low and it spins too much.  That's just a fact.  I saw it day after day.  There wasn't very many times that I told a Pro V1 player that I couldn't improve his trajectory.  I'm not telling anyone to stop playing it or making a recommendation, but the information that is out there isn't always accurate and it should be taken with a grain of salt.

I'd be happy to respond to any questions, as long as it's kept friendly.

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31 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

I'm going to jump in here and provide some information that I hope will be helpful.  I've seen a lot of incorrect or misinterpreted statements being thrown around, and I'm not responding to Mr. Mondano specifically, just want to cut through the b.s. and share some facts.

I'd be happy to respond to any questions, as long as it's kept friendly.

Do you think that a 103mph swing with 3000rpm of backspin is enough swing speed and low enough spin for the ProV1? If not, what ball?

If not, do you have any data showing the 103mph SS player hitting the ProV1 versus some other ball that could be more optimal and "absolute compression" values?

 

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28 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

If a ball is too firm for a player's swing speed, the ball won't deform adequately and will not store as much energy which will cause a loss of performance.

While fully respecting your history working as a ball fitter for Bridgestone, I have to beg to differ here.

While it can be helpful to think of deforming a golf ball as "storing" energy, the more a golf ball deforms the more energy it loses overall. That's why a flat tennis ball does not rocket off a racket (ha ha) as fast as a new, firm, properly inflated tennis ball. Or any other kind of inflated ball, like a basketball, racketball, soccer ball, etc.

Firmer balls (higher compression) deform less and lose less energy in deforming (energy is spent deforming and then "re-forming" the golf ball), and a firmer golf ball will, all else being equal, leave the clubface with a higher ball speed.

That higher ball speed often means a bit lower spin, and/or different launch angles, and other characteristics that affect overall distance, and I believe it's those other characteristics that leads to softer, lower compression balls being a better fit for some players looking to maximize distance.

But I don't think the physics bear out the "storing of energy" and think it's quite the opposite: more deformation = more energy lost.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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I've just finished reading all these posts and there is a wealth of information here within. My answer to your original question is: give the ProV1 and ProV1X a try and see what happens. Also, I've found the Snell MTB (available on their web site) a really good substitute for $10 to $15 less per dozen.

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2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Do you think that a 103mph swing with 3000rpm of backspin is enough swing speed and low enough spin for the ProV1? If not, what ball?

If not, do you have any data showing the 103mph SS player hitting the ProV1 versus some other ball that could be more optimal and "absolute compression" values?

 

 

Just now, iacas said:

While fully respecting your history working as a ball fitter for Bridgestone, I have to beg to differ here.

While it can be helpful to think of deforming a golf ball as "storing" energy, the more a golf ball deforms the more energy it loses overall. That's why a flat tennis ball does not rocket off a racket (ha ha) as fast as a new, firm, properly inflated tennis ball. Or any other kind of inflated ball, like a basketball, racketball, soccer ball, etc.

Firmer balls (higher compression) deform less and lose less energy in deforming (energy is spent deforming and then "re-forming" the golf ball), and a firmer golf ball will, all else being equal, leave the clubface with a higher ball speed.

That higher ball speed often means a bit lower spin, and/or different launch angles, and other characteristics that affect overall distance, and I believe it's those other characteristics that leads to softer, lower compression balls being a better fit for some players looking to maximize distance.

But I don't think the physics bear out the "storing of energy" and think it's quite the opposite: more deformation = more energy lost.

Okay, thanks for this little tidbit of information. :-)

I have a bunch of Bridgestone S330 from fittings that I can use once I run out of my ProV1 sometime in the next decade. . .

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Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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1 minute ago, Hoganman1 said:

I've just finished reading all these posts and there is a wealth of information here within. My answer to your original question is: give the ProV1 and ProV1X a try and see what happens. Also, I've found the Snell MTB (available on their web site) a really good substitute for $10 to $15 less per dozen.

Second, third, and fourth this bit, of course!

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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20 minutes ago, iacas said:

While fully respecting your history working as a ball fitter for Bridgestone, I have to beg to differ here.

While it can be helpful to think of deforming a golf ball as "storing" energy, the more a golf ball deforms the more energy it loses overall. That's why a flat tennis ball does not rocket off a racket (ha ha) as fast as a new, firm, properly inflated tennis ball. Or any other kind of inflated ball, like a basketball, racketball, soccer ball, etc.

Firmer balls (higher compression) deform less and lose less energy in deforming (energy is spent deforming and then "re-forming" the golf ball), and a firmer golf ball will, all else being equal, leave the clubface with a higher ball speed.

That higher ball speed often means a bit lower spin, and/or different launch angles, and other characteristics that affect overall distance, and I believe it's those other characteristics that leads to softer, lower compression balls being a better fit for some players looking to maximize distance.

But I don't think the physics bear out the "storing of energy" and think it's quite the opposite: more deformation = more energy lost.

What about a ball that wouldn't deform at all... Say a titanium ball that was weighted in the middle so it was the same weight as a golf ball.  Would that come off a golf club faster?

I can't speak to the physics but I've sure seen for myself a trampoline effect... when watching someone on a trampoline.  And I've seen a superball come off the ground a lot faster than a wooden (lighter) or steel ball (heavier) ever could.

And, since the ball comes off the club at a speed faster than the club head speed, where does the additional speed come from?

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46 minutes ago, iacas said:

While fully respecting your history working as a ball fitter for Bridgestone, I have to beg to differ here.

While it can be helpful to think of deforming a golf ball as "storing" energy, the more a golf ball deforms the more energy it loses overall. That's why a flat tennis ball does not rocket off a racket (ha ha) as fast as a new, firm, properly inflated tennis ball. Or any other kind of inflated ball, like a basketball, racketball, soccer ball, etc.

Firmer balls (higher compression) deform less and lose less energy in deforming (energy is spent deforming and then "re-forming" the golf ball), and a firmer golf ball will, all else being equal, leave the clubface with a higher ball speed.

That higher ball speed often means a bit lower spin, and/or different launch angles, and other characteristics that affect overall distance, and I believe it's those other characteristics that leads to softer, lower compression balls being a better fit for some players looking to maximize distance.

But I don't think the physics bear out the "storing of energy" and think it's quite the opposite: more deformation = more energy lost.

You are correct regarding a firmer ball having higher ball velocity...when struck on the sweet spot.  A softer core closer maintains ball velocity on off-center hits in relation to a center strike. A firmer compression golf ball will lose a higher percentage of ball velocity on off-center hits.  This is also true with backspin/sidespin. Backspin will have a larger deviation on off-center strikes compared to a softer compression. A softer compression ball will remain more stable and relative to control characteristics of a center strike.

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1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Do you think that a 103mph swing with 3000rpm of backspin is enough swing speed and low enough spin for the ProV1? If not, what ball?

If not, do you have any data showing the 103mph SS player hitting the ProV1 versus some other ball that could be more optimal and "absolute compression" values?

 

Well, your ideal numbers are what they are...it's just a matter of finding the ball that will produce those numbers with your swing.  3000 rpms of backspin is higher than I would like to see.  For the most efficient trajectory, your numbers should look like this:

103.PNG

I don't have all the information about your current launch conditions, but the closer you can get to these numbers the more powerful and efficient your trajectory will be.

Bridgestone j40 445 w/ Graphite Design AD DJ-7
Callaway Steelhead Plus 3 wood w/ RCH Pro Series 3.2
Adams Idea Pro hybrids (3 & 4) w/ Aldila VS Proto 
Bridgestone j33 CB (5-PW) w/ original Rifle 5.5
Bridgestone West Coast 52*, j40 satin 56* & 60* w/ DG S-300
Odyssey White Hot XG #9
Bridgestone B330-RX

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1 hour ago, No Mulligans said:

What about a ball that wouldn't deform at all... Say a titanium ball that was weighted in the middle so it was the same weight as a golf ball.  Would that come off a golf club faster?

Yes, as @1badbadger noted. You'd be getting pretty close to an elastic collision. Such a ball would probably be illegal, though, as it would violate the ODS. :-)

1 hour ago, No Mulligans said:

I can't speak to the physics but I've sure seen for myself a trampoline effect... when watching someone on a trampoline. And I've seen a superball come off the ground a lot faster than a wooden (lighter) or steel ball (heavier) ever could.

That's a different realm of physics altogether. How far could you hit a golf ball made of marshmallow, even if it was wrapped in some plastic wrap with lead dust throughout to make it weigh enough? Not very far.

Within the realm of golf balls that are legal to play, firmer balls have a higher ball speed at any given swing speed.

1 hour ago, No Mulligans said:

And, since the ball comes off the club at a speed faster than the club head speed, where does the additional speed come from?

Think about it… ;-) and then imagine a clubhead or shaft made out of material like a drinking straw and ask yourself what would happen if it could be swung at a golf ball. Or a baseball bat versus a wiffle ball bat swung at a 100 MPH fastball.

  • Upvote 1

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43 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

Well, your ideal numbers are what they are...it's just a matter of finding the ball that will produce those numbers with your swing.  3000 rpms of backspin is higher than I would like to see.  For the most efficient trajectory, your numbers should look like this:

103.PNG

I don't have all the information about your current launch conditions, but the closer you can get to these numbers the more powerful and efficient your trajectory will be.

Thanks. I'll get my current launch conditions measured. Not 100% sure I still have the 3000rpm or not. . .

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Ping i20 irons U-4, CFS300
Callaway XR16 9 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S
Callaway XR16 3W 15 degree Fujikura Speeder 565 S, X2Hot Pro 20 degrees S

"I'm hitting the woods just great, but I'm having a terrible time getting out of them." ~Harry Toscano

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12 hours ago, iacas said:

 

That's a different realm of physics altogether. How far could you hit a golf ball made of marshmallow, even if it was wrapped in some plastic wrap with lead dust throughout to make it weigh enough? Not very far.

 

This far!

 

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13 hours ago, iacas said:

Within the realm of golf balls that are legal to play, firmer balls have a higher ball speed at any given swing speed.

 Really it depends on the COR of the materials used. A superball will bounce higher than a pool ball, for example. It is true that it's easier to make a firmer golf ball with a higher COR. But USGA limits on initial velocity prevent them from being made with as high a COR as they could be.

And so at this point in time, I think recent lower compression balls are achieving the same initial velocity limits, and ball speeds generally, as firmer balls. 

But if anyone is gaining distance from lower compression balls, that's probably also due to differences in spin performance and not the idea that the ball needs to "compress" in order to achieve velocity. And it likely won't be much related to swing speed.

So, minimum swing speed for ProV1: 1mph.

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