Vanity handicaps. AKA Screw Balls

[Golfingdad]

So you are basically talking about this guy: [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/76574/] [/URL] I blurred the name, to protect the innocent. Check out the tournament scores compared to the casual rounds. He goes to a bunch of our state amateur competitions and embarrasses himself. I actually played with this guy one time. I recognized his name because I was the handicap chairman at the time. I asked him why he never played in any of our club tournaments. He told me that our club tournaments didn't have enough competition for him. I then proceeded to beat him by like 15 strokes. At the end of the round I told him we had plenty of competition for him, except he would need to get his handicap up. He is at best a 8-9 handicap.

I don't think so. He just looks inconsistent (granted, he's wildly inconsistent ;)) to me. How can you shoot under the course rating in a tournament and not have some game? And unless you're saying he actually cheats in tournaments then he's no worse than about a 3. (That number is off the top of my head using the 7 best of his 14 tournament scores on there ... Which is technically conservative) Granted, I'm new to the tournament scene, but my handicap in only tournaments is a lot more than 3 strokes higher than my actual cap. :(

[boil3rmak3r]

I don't think so. He just looks inconsistent (granted, he's wildly inconsistent ;)) to me. How can you shoot under the course rating in a tournament and not have some game? And unless you're saying he actually cheats in tournaments then he's no worse than about a 3. (That number is off the top of my head using the 7 best of his 14 tournament scores on there ... Which is technically conservative) Granted, I'm new to the tournament scene, but my handicap in only tournaments is a lot more than 3 strokes higher than my actual cap. :(

I agree. Tournaments (especially ones outside of your home course) are a different thing. Based on those scores posted, I'm guessing he's truly under a 5 hdcp. I have a personal example of a vanity capper. My Thursday night league partner has a 16 cap. The league uses you cap for the first three 9 hole matches. After that, they use your past league results to set your "league" handicap. The first 3 matches, my partner got 8 strokes. The last 3 matches, he's gotten 15 stokes because the implemented the "league" cap. He's the typical vanity capper that posts all scores in the mid 80's or low 90's, but NEVER posts his scores above the low 90's. I'm guessing he only posts 1 score out of every round he plays. I know it's an ego thing for him, but I hope I'll never understand it...

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by MS256

SMH. That's the whole point. Doesn't everybody?

No, of course not.  And that is the crux of the entire issue, so I guess it doesn't surprise me that you assume so.

[Moppy]

My only point about counting every stroke is that you can see your progress. I am just learning the game and usually play with another guy who has been playing longer and he talks about how his score seems to be stuck but he takes mulligans, "foot wedges" etc, so how does he really know whether he is improving or not? He may be hitting fewer mulligans as his drive straightens out, but wouldn't know he was getting better.

[Nutter]

Originally Posted by MS256

SMH. That's the whole point. Doesn't everybody?

If you play golf with other people and you know what you shoot, and you know what they shoot, and you know what their handicaps are, it's not very hard to have a pretty good idea what it would be. If somebody can't get a decent idea from that and the course rating I don't know what else to say.

I don't know a single golfer that doesn't have enough of an idea to know who to play against straight up, and who they better pass on with a thanks but no thanks.

Regardless of the heat you're getting, your original statement "most people have a good idea of what their handicap is" is still pretty accurate in my eyes.  I never read anything where you said if you couldn't calculate your EXACT handicap you're an idiot.  If you can't guess plus or minus 3 or 4 strokes away from actual handicap I would have to agree that you're not really trying too hard or you just don't have any idea what you're doing.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Nutter

If you can't guess plus or minus 3 or 4 strokes away from actual handicap ...you just don't have any idea what you're doing.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Spyder

That's funny. Golfers that I know of, personally, who break 70 and shoot a 68 do not post a 90... ever. I'm sure it is feasible and possible, but I honestly do not know of any so I can only assume it is rare based on who I know personally. The golfers that I know that break 70 and shoot in the high 60's will typically have a bad round in the high 70's or low 80's, but they're not shooting over 88 unless they are physically hurt or impaired.

Three guys at US Open Regional Qualifying in Southern California shot 90 or above.  And since it was regional qualifying, all of the guys with the fake handicaps had already been washed out in local qualifying.  And you can't blame it on the difficulty of the course, since the medalist shot a 10 under 134 for 36 holes.

So it happens.

[Nutter]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

3 or 4 strokes isn't a big variance for someone that doesn't record their scores at all and is just completely guessing (with basic knowledge of the handicap system), which is what I meant and what I am assuming he meant. If someone is an actual 5 and guesses they are an 8 or vice versa with no data I'd say they have a good "idea" of where they stand. I'm not looking to get into your little battle of who can be the most demeaning, just stating my opinion.

[flintcreek6412]

I still don't understand why anyone really cares if someone carries a "vanity HC".....Other than bragging rights it's only going to hurt that person in the end.  It's kind of like stuffing a sock in your shorts trying to impress the women.   At some point you might have to expose yourself for the fraud you are.

Specific case for me here.  A guy I work with claims to be a 3.  It's unofficial and he states he doesn't need an official HC because he doesn't participate in competitions.  He fits probably 95% of golfers in that regard.  Every time I ask how he played he shot somewhere between a 71-75.   So I of course assume he's got some game.

Last year we played together for the first time.  We played the course he belongs to which is rated 68/117.  In the course of our 18 holes of recreational play I saw him fluff almost every ball for the perfect lie, take 3 mulligans of which one was OB off the tee and another was a lost ball in tall grass.  I saw him pick up 3 foot putts that were cross slope and probably broke 8" in that 3ft.  He carded a 75 at the end of that day.  I didn't care because he didn't turn cards in for HC and we weren't playing for money.

But I knew that with a course rating of 68 his 3 over converted to a 7HC right away and the slope at 117 didn't affect it.   I also knew that he saved at least 4 strokes of stroke/distance on 2 of his mulligans and another stroke on the 3rd mulligan.  Couple that with improved lies, a footwedge behind a shrub and gimee putts and he's lucky to be a 10-12HC.  The guy does have some good ball striking and his wedge game is very impressive but when he gets in trouble he can blow up a hole really fast.

I chatted it up with a co-worker who plays regularly with him.  He laughed and said that's how this guy plays every round.  He said if you really want to piss him off make him putt everything out.  He said he will miss 70% of his 3ft putts.

A few weeks after this the guy asked me to play again.  Since we've played cards together for years and have always had a good time at it he wanted to play for money.  I was actually shocked he didn't want to gamble on our first outing but I figured he wanted to size me up first on the course.

I told him I was a mid 8 HC and he said he was a 3.  I then recalled a card game with a newbie that brought $500 to the table and started drinking heavy right away.  When we play cards for that kind of money we have fun but it's also business in a sense and none of us drink more than a couple.   That guy learned a hard lesson about heavy drinking and playing cards with guys that don't get stupid.

Since we both took advantage of a drunken card player to teach him a lesson, I figured it was time to teach this guy a lesson about handicaps and betting.

He gave me the 5 strokes I was due.  I then made it really clear up front that when I play for money there are no mulligans, foot wedges, improved lies and all putts see the bottom of the cup unless conceded.  He agreed and we set off.

Well, I proceeded to beat the heck out of him and take his money.  The stakes weren't very high and I doubt I even made $15 but his ego was deflated.  He chalked it up to a bad round and afterwards over a beer I casually told him that I used to think I was pretty good years ago until I started counting every stroke playing by the rigid rules of golf.  I told him it humbled me to some extent but now I embrace it.  I told him that had he actually kept legit scores in the past I would probably owe him 5 strokes instead of him owing me 5.  He understood and it was a good conversation with me buying rounds with his money.

We don't play much golf together and I still hear him tell people about being a 3HC and I just grin.  It's very important to him that people have the perception that he's a good golfer and he is a good golfer, just not a 3.  He continues to golf and gamble but limits it  to the same playing partners that keep score the same way he does so it works for him.

We still play poker regularly and that works for both of us very well.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

I still don't understand why anyone really cares if someone carries a "vanity HC".....Other than bragging rights it's only going to hurt that person in the end.

Because, at the end of the day, it:

• is dishonest
• sets one person as being "better" than someone else when they're not.

[JonMA1]

I've only played golf with three other people in my life. One of the three was an older gentleman I hadn't previously known. I could tell after a couple of holes he had a pretty good game. But as we played, I saw him repeatedly move his ball to a better lie when on the fairway. This was a guy who played in tournaments, leagues and submitted his scores for handicap. I didn't care, but I thought it was odd. He was a good guy and was eager to give me advice on how to improve my game. One of his suggestions was to reposition my ball for a better lie, lol.

As I continue to learn the game, dishonesty of others may become more of an issue. But for now, it can be written off as human nature and doesn't personally effect me. Last year I took mulligans if I thought there was a good "reason". That was just stupid and served no purpose. This year I don't see any advantage to them and the same goes with a vanity handicap. The fact that my scores are a bit lower without mulligans makes me feel better about my progress.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Three guys at US Open Regional Qualifying in Southern California shot 90 or above.  And since it was regional qualifying, all of the guys with the fake handicaps had already been washed out in local qualifying.  And you can't blame it on the difficulty of the course, since the medalist shot a 10 under 134 for 36 holes.

So it happens.

They are also playing courses that are much harder than courses that the amateurs that were being discussed are playing on. Sure, a guy shooting 68 on a public muni can absolutely shoot 90 or even 100+ on a US Open setting. But, that guy shooting 68 at a public muni is rarely going to encroach upon a score of 88+ on a public course; unless again, he is either hurt, impaired, or suffering a mental breakdown.

[TJBam]

Down with the HCP system!! :P

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Spyder

They are also playing courses that are much harder than courses that the amateurs that were being discussed are playing on. Sure, a guy shooting 68 on a public muni can absolutely shoot 90 or even 100+ on a US Open setting. But, that guy shooting 68 at a public muni is rarely going to encroach upon a score of 88+ on a public course; unless again, he is either hurt, impaired, or suffering a mental breakdown.

Not in regional qualifying.  Big Canyon wasn't set up particularly difficult and played at just under 7000 yards.  Courses for qualifying are not the same as courses for the actual US Open.  The membership at those clubs is not going to let them grow "US Open rough" or mess too much with their greens.  Other guys were shooting under par.  At Newport Beach Country Club a guy shot a 62.  22 players finished at par or better.  And remember, these guys shooting in the 90s had already made it through local qualifying where a very small percentage of the entries make it through.

[Floris]

This Monday I played on a par71 course, from the white tees with a CR of 129. So why post in this thread? Well the people I played with said they played a 16 and 21 handicap: they did not.. I counted about 5 OB balls on the gentleman, another 3-4 mulligans and any ball within about two feet of the pin wasn't counted anymore. He said he played 32 stablefords. I think he played about 105 shots, not including penalties. The woman was good from the tees, but not that good on the fairway. In all honesty she could have played about a 25-26 handicap, better then he did. Annoying part is that they where constantly pushing me to play faster. After the fourth hole I 'cocooned' myself: played my own game, tried not to interfere with them other then complementing them on good balls and good putts... On the tenth I lost it though, my hands where sweaty as hell and after all their pushing I decided not to wipe my hands and grip. Result: I simply lost my club in the swing.. It flww out of my hands just after I hit the ball.. I came off the par3 with a triple, didn't like it either but I wasn't going to give myself a mulligan. ;)

[McMullenCPA]

Before I started keeping track, I estimated I was somewhere between a bogey and double bogey golfer, so around a 27. My best round this year was an 83 (69.1/120) though and I've had others in the low 90s. I plugged in my scores and I'm currently at an 18.4, so I was way off!

I'm actually kind of embarrassed that I told some co-workers/friends I thought I was around a 27, because they are really good and now I wonder whether they won't want to play with me! (fear of slowing them down).

[club ho]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Question, which is slightly off-topic, but I need clarification.

I'm a 5. A legit 5. Watch me make one swing & you'll agree. But if I am playing a round for handicap purposes & I hack up a hole, say a triple, I can only post double-bogey on that hole if I'm turning the round in for my handicap, right?

What you say is absolutely correct. The only problem I have seen is golfers will actually stop keeping there actual score and announce that they shot there handicap adjusted scores. THe next thing you know they become vanity handicap cases. I just keep my score and enter it without any adjustment. So I guess I would be considered a sand bagger. I am willing to bet it does not change my handicap by less than half a  stroke if anything at all.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by club ho

What you say is absolutely correct. The only problem I have seen is golfers will actually stop keeping there actual score and announce that they shot there handicap adjusted scores. THe next thing you know they become vanity handicap cases. I just keep my score and enter it without any adjustment. So I guess I would be considered a sand bagger. I am willing to bet it does not change my handicap by less than half a  stroke if anything at all.

You mean the "oh, I don't know, just put me down for an 8" guys?  Lol.  Yeah, I know lots of those.  Regarding your last statement ... I'd tend to agree with you.  I do apply ESC on my rounds, and, in fact, when I was in the 9's and 8's was applying it too liberally.  I would take no more than a double, however, some courses/tees I played gave me 10 shots, which meant I should be taking 7's maximum.  WHoops.  Thing is, in the 10 rounds of my best 20, there were probably 2 or 3 strokes at most that I didn't count that I should have, so perhaps I should be a 7.1 instead of a 6.8 at this point.

At a single digit handicap, rounds that include 7's or 8's are likely not in your 10 best, for the most part, so I agree that you probably won't be affected much at all.  If it was me, I would still do it though, as I don't want to do anything at all that would give people any opportunity to call me a sand bagger. :)