"Hey! While we're young!" - USGA Pace of Play

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Would you want to drive around the course and get into hassles with drunk golfers for <$100 a day + free golf, I wouldn't.  Why do drivers continue to speed, run red lights, drive too slow, drive recklessly or drive drunk?  They all know the laws, they do it because they think they are above the law or they just don't care.

You run into many of the same on the golf course.  These guys think because they paid their green fees they can do what they want.  Education is part of it, which is why the commercials are good and imo certainly better than sending some poor retired guy into the lions den to tell a bunch of idiots they need to pick up the pace or he's kicking them out.

I'm sure its worse on a golf course, simply because you are not breaking any laws. The only thing you can do is to very politely ask them to let other players play through, and continue to have fun.

Some or most people go onto the golf course just for sun and fun, and as long as they let people play through they should be allowed to do so. This will increase the revenue of any course, as more people would play.

If I was retired and made $100 per day with free golf, I would do this.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Dave, I agree that when the situation allows, we all should help to educate people on pace of play.

In an earlier post I mentioned an incident with the Ladies Golf League and the way the women in front of us played it looked more like shuffle board than golf.  When our round ended early due to lightning, they apologized for playing slow and I responded that I was new to the game too and appreciated the effort it takes to learn as well as point out that they should pick up after double par or they might encounter less friendly reactions to their play.

When I played public courses I saw a mix of dads with his kids, drunken idiots, serious golfers and newbies.  With a mix like that it's hard to know who's at fault for the slow pace of play if it's not the groups immediately in front of you.  Unless you're one of the first groups out on a given day you may not ever know who caused the back up.

Ultimately the course has the take the responsibility if this is going to gain any traction.  Courses are in a tough spot, they don't want altercations or lost business due to enforcing pace of play rules but at the same time they know if they don't they will likely lose the serious golfers as customers which will only compound their pace of play problems.  The police recognize that they can't stop people from violating traffic laws and they can't write everyone a ticket (at least not until cameras for speeding are deployed) so they go after the worst offenders.  People who drive 65 in a 55 are left alone but the guy driving 85 gets pulled over.

I think courses are going to have to do the same thing unless they use golf cart technology like Dave describes where the cart shuts down when they fall too far behind their pace.  This will require courses using gas carts to invest in electric carts, outfitting every cart with gps and the technology to shut down the cart remotely or through the gps software which is likely not a cheap solution.

Your hearts in the right place and I get your point, but you have to consider that calling strangers out on slow play is not always possible or smart (personal safety).  The courses have to make it a priority, I'd feel a lot better going up to the guys in front of me and telling them they better speed up or their cart is going to die because of slow play rather then make them think this is my personal crusade to speed up pace of play.

I know we can't always call out slow groups.  Like you said, sometimes it's better to leave well enough alone and wait until the end of the round and report them to the pro shop.

I'm betting it would be far cheaper to put cameras on the areas of the course that seem to be most problematic than it would be to outfit every golf cart with GPS and wireless shut-off capabilities, etc.  It would still require someone to monitor those cameras for back-ups and to send out a marshal to get groups to play faster, but I would think it's a more cost-effective solution and wouldn't raise our fees nearly as much.  Cameras don't cost much, and maintenance is minimal compared to GPS units.  Honestly, one guy sitting in the cart shop (or whatever you call the guys who take care of the carts and load/unload the clubs) and one marshal should be able to handle most problems within a few minutes.

What I find really stupid is that some golf courses, instead of spending money to speed up play (as we WISH they would) are doing things to SLOW IT DOWN.  I'm pretty sure cell phones don't speed up play in any way, right?  Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure they slow it down (particularly when some moron is checking his golf app before every shot).

So WHY is THIS (see below) happening???

Two properties are claiming firsts in golf car technology this week. Greenhorn Creek Golf Resort in Angel Camp, Calif., is the first golf course in the U.S. to provide solar-powered phone charging by mounting ultra-slim solar panels on top of golf cars. On July 27, Windy Knoll Golf Club in Springfield, Ohio will debut the first two models of Neoteric Golf’s Signature Series Hovercraft Golf Carts for use in special events.

http://www.clubandresortbusiness.com/2013/07/09/golf-cars-get-tech-makeover/

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by dave67az

I know we can't always call out slow groups.  Like you said, sometimes it's better to leave well enough alone and wait until the end of the round and report them to the pro shop.

I'm betting it would be far cheaper to put cameras on the areas of the course that seem to be most problematic than it would be to outfit every golf cart with GPS and wireless shut-off capabilities, etc.  It would still require someone to monitor those cameras for back-ups and to send out a marshal to get groups to play faster, but I would think it's a more cost-effective solution and wouldn't raise our fees nearly as much.  Cameras don't cost much, and maintenance is minimal compared to GPS units.  Honestly, one guy sitting in the cart shop (or whatever you call the guys who take care of the carts and load/unload the clubs) and one marshal should be able to handle most problems within a few minutes.

What I find really stupid is that some golf courses, instead of spending money to speed up play (as we WISH they would) are doing things to SLOW IT DOWN.  I'm pretty sure cell phones don't speed up play in any way, right?  Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure they slow it down (particularly when some moron is checking his golf app before every shot).

So WHY is THIS (see below) happening???

Two properties are claiming firsts in golf car technology this week. Greenhorn Creek Golf Resort in Angel Camp, Calif., is the first golf course in the U.S. to provide solar-powered phone charging by mounting ultra-slim solar panels on top of golf cars. On July 27, Windy Knoll Golf Club in Springfield, Ohio will debut the first two models of Neoteric Golf’s Signature Series Hovercraft Golf Carts for use in special events.

http://www.clubandresortbusiness.com/2013/07/09/golf-cars-get-tech-makeover/

I agree with you, but I am definitely hitting Springfield next Summer to try out those hovercrafts...

[cda77]

I played a couple of weeks ago at a cow pasture course with my almost 7 yo son.  On the second tee, a 120 yard par 3, we caught up with the group in front of us, a fivesome.

We sat there are watched all 5 tee off, not a single one coming within 10 yards of hitting the green.

They started to get in their carts are drive away, when I spoke up and said fellas, we are a twosome.

My comment got them arguing amongst themselves.  One guy adamantly stating if they let us play through, they would be doing that all day.

I laughed and said fellas, we are playing through and will be out of your way in less than 5 minutes.

I teed it up and hit my wedge to about 20 feet, with them still arguing.  My son walked up to the red tees and hit his hybrid inside of Dad.  I missed my putt and my son drained his, it was a really great moment.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by cda77

I played a couple of weeks ago at a cow pasture course with my almost 7 yo son.  On the second tee, a 120 yard par 3, we caught up with the group in front of us, a fivesome.

We sat there are watched all 5 tee off, not a single one coming within 10 yards of hitting the green.

They started to get in their carts are drive away, when I spoke up and said fellas, we are a twosome.

My comment got them arguing amongst themselves.  One guy adamantly stating if they let us play through, they would be doing that all day.

I laughed and said fellas, we are playing through and will be out of your way in less than 5 minutes.

I teed it up and hit my wedge to about 20 feet, with them still arguing.  My son walked up to the red tees and hit his hybrid inside of Dad.  I missed my putt and my son drained his, it was a really great moment.

I live for that.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by cda77

I played a couple of weeks ago at a cow pasture course with my almost 7 yo son.  On the second tee, a 120 yard par 3, we caught up with the group in front of us, a fivesome.

We sat there are watched all 5 tee off, not a single one coming within 10 yards of hitting the green.

They started to get in their carts are drive away, when I spoke up and said fellas, we are a twosome.

My comment got them arguing amongst themselves.  One guy adamantly stating if they let us play through, they would be doing that all day.

I laughed and said fellas, we are playing through and will be out of your way in less than 5 minutes.

I teed it up and hit my wedge to about 20 feet, with them still arguing.  My son walked up to the red tees and hit his hybrid inside of Dad.  I missed my putt and my son drained his, it was a really great moment.

I stand by my opinion that if 5somes are found on a golf course, there should be a drone strike in the immediate vicinity.  Stay clear.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I stand by my opinion that if 5somes are found on a golf course, there should be a drone strike in the immediate vicinity.  Stay clear.

I was by myself and joined up with a 4some. We finished 18 in 4 hours.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I think courses are going to have to do the same thing unless they use golf cart technology like Dave describes where the cart shuts down when they fall too far behind their pace.  This will require courses using gas carts to invest in electric carts, outfitting every cart with gps and the technology to shut down the cart remotely or through the gps software which is likely not a cheap solution.

It's actually pretty cheap and interrupt capability is the same for gas or electric. All it does is open the circuit. Courses short on cash could require people to ride and just install GPS that tracks the carts. It wouldn't have to offer any convenience features on a screen.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I stand by my opinion that if 5somes are found on a golf course, there should be a drone strike in the immediate vicinity.  Stay clear.

I think Brad politely called it "a shot across the bow" )

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I stand by my opinion that if 5somes are found on a golf course, there should be a drone strike in the immediate vicinity.  Stay clear.

I was by myself and joined up with a 4some. We finished 18 in 4 hours.

Been there - done that.  It's still the same old thing.  Slow payers cause slow golf.  Educate the players, then provide some sort of enforcement so that those educated played players know that the course takes it seriously and you will solve the problem quickly.  If you don't educate, you'll never get full compliance because you won't be taken seriously.  If players feel that they are being singled out without justification, you haven't done anything to improve the pace of play in the long run, but you have just created the potential for a bigger problem of belligerent confrontation.

[Lihu]

The worst thing is I am probably going to be guilty of slow play this Friday.

What is the best advice to me to help make my playing partners move more quickly?

[Dave2512]

I don't see it as an education issue as much as the LCD generally lacks the responsibility to self-police. It's not just slow play. Courses have trouble with patrons and liquor license violations, it's a bigger problem than slow play at my former home course. Everything we do for entertainment has rules. Restaurants prefer that patrons don't let their children climb all over the place like monkeys but parents allow it to happen. Most arenas post no cameras or recording devices on the tickets sold for music events but people ignore it because they feel entitled because they paid an entry fee. The guy smoking dope at a concert knows he's not supposed to be doing it but he still does. There's something about being a small group in the middle of several hundred acres, it's the perfect setting for a douche-bag to act out. That's why you see men pissing in bushes 200 yds from a bathroom. Golf courses are an inviting venue for people that find uncouth behavior acceptable. Calling them out is only going to create problems because they don't care.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I stand by my opinion that if 5somes are found on a golf course, there should be a drone strike in the immediate vicinity.  Stay clear.

Originally Posted by Lihu

I think Brad politely called it "a shot across the bow" )

I think it was December of 2000, but we did that when I was active duty at Luke AFB (the largest fighter training base in the world).  The official story was a fighter-pilot-in-training "accidentally" released a practice bomb over a nearby golf course, exploding at the edge of a fairway and leaving a big black mark on the course.  Luckily nobody checked phone records, which showed a call from the course super 15 minutes before the incident.

Never had a problem with that particular 5-some again.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Lihu

The worst thing is I am probably going to be guilty of slow play this Friday.

What is the best advice to me to help make my playing partners move more quickly?

Find out what's slowing them down (hunting for lost balls, chatting before every shot, not taking the right clubs with them when they get out of the cart, etc).  At the turn, go into the pro shop to get a new glove (or whatever) and go back and tell them that you were warned if you don't speed up you'll be put on the course's new "slow group" list.

Or just start videoing their antics with your phone (if you have one with you) and tell them you're sending it in to the Golf Channel to use in their next "While We're Young" commercial.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I don't see it as an education issue as much as the LCD generally lacks the responsibility to self-police. It's not just slow play. Courses have trouble with patrons and liquor license violations, it's a bigger problem than slow play at my former home course. Everything we do for entertainment has rules. Restaurants prefer that patrons don't let their children climb all over the place like monkeys but parents allow it to happen. Most arenas post no cameras or recording devices on the tickets sold for music events but people ignore it because they feel entitled because they paid an entry fee. The guy smoking dope at a concert knows he's not supposed to be doing it but he still does. There's something about being a small group in the middle of several hundred acres, it's the perfect setting for a douche-bag to act out. That's why you see men pissing in bushes 200 yds from a bathroom. Golf courses are an inviting venue for people that find uncouth behavior acceptable. Calling them out is only going to create problems because they don't care.

Agreed, these years will be remembered as the Entitlement Era where everyone feels entitled to anything they want and to act however they want.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Agreed, these years will be remembered as the Entitlement Era where everyone feels entitled to anything they want and to act however they want.

Here here!

Something tells me if we had the foresight to see what problem we were creating when we followed the "experts" advice and taught our kids to think for themselves and not to always follow the "rules" that everyone else sets for them, maybe we would have raised them differently.  It's one thing to teach your kids to be independent and not to just follow what the crowd is doing.  Now we've got a generation that thinks they can pick and choose which rules they follow, including guidelines for pace of play.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by dave67az

Here here!

Something tells me if we had the foresight to see what problem we were creating when we followed the "experts" advice and taught our kids to think for themselves and not to always follow the "rules" that everyone else sets for them, maybe we would have raised them differently.  It's one thing to teach your kids to be independent and not to just follow what the crowd is doing.  Now we've got a generation that thinks they can pick and choose which rules they follow, including guidelines for pace of play.

I really, really do not want to get into an off-topic debate over generation gaps or stereotypes per generation. However, I can assure you that this generation also has many intelligent and independent youths who can decipher right from wrong and are equipped with common sense. Please, let's not forget that the acid-dropping generation prior to ours is what got us into a whole economical mess to begin with, while it is the younger generation and their future children that will be living in the consequential mess.

On the topic of golf though - Again, you cannot fix stupid, period. This has nothing to do with parenting or generations/generalizations of golfers. This is purely a common sense issue and those who have no common sense may never have that awakening moment when they realize that they are a part/cause of an issue that is affecting those around them. Another issue is that another small percentage of those who DO wake up and realize they are slow golfers will probably not try to do anything to fix it, but yet they will continue at their pace and maybe let you play through after 3-5 holes of suffering.

In the end, there's no one solution that will satisfy the masses. You either strictly enforce a Pace-of-Play structure on the course which starts with changes implemented from management down, or you loosely remind golfers that they should be aware of their pace. There's no grey area or perfect solution here.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Spyder

On the topic of golf though - Again, you cannot fix stupid, period. This has nothing to do with parenting or generations/generalizations of golfers. This is purely a common sense issue and those who have no common sense may never have that awakening moment when they realize that they are a part/cause of an issue that is affecting those around them. Another issue is that another small percentage of those who DO wake up and realize they are slow golfers will probably not try to do anything to fix it, but yet they will continue at their pace and maybe let you play through after 3-5 holes of suffering.

In the end, there's no one solution that will satisfy the masses. You either strictly enforce a Pace-of-Play structure on the course which starts with changes implemented from management down, or you loosely remind golfers that they should be aware of their pace. There's no grey area or perfect solution here.

I'm not about to address your nonsense about some mythical "acid dropping generation", but I will address your comment about "stupid".  The problem is rarely stupidity, it's ignorance.  How many times does it have to be said? Most slow players don't know that they are slow. There really are very few stupid people who play golf.  Entitled?  Yes.  Clueless?  Yes.  Stupid?  Not so much.  Point out to them what they are doing wrong and how to fix it so that the ranger will get off their ass and most will take it to heart.

I said it already somewhere else, but I think that the USGA can do one more big thing to help improve pace of play across the board, and that is to remove the honor system from stroke play.  So many players, especially beginners, come onto the course having heard just one or two rules in their lives, and one of those is that the player who is away goes first, and they have heard it as being the number one rule of golf, set in stone.  I can't tell you how many times I've been paired up with inexperienced players and I find them constantly standing around waiting to find out who is away, or who has the honor on the tee.  It may not cure all pace of play ills, but it sure wouldn't hurt.

I feel that honor should be reserved for match play only, and it should be widely advertised that it is irrelevant in stroke play.  Just delete that rule from the book for stroke play.

When I'm paired with strangers on the first tee, I tell them that I play ready golf, so not to be offended if I play when I'm not away.