How to handle a cheater????

[CraiginKSA]

If it is an organized tournament, you NEVER, EVER, keep your own card. You exchange cards with an opponent and keep each others card. Then you sign each others card after the round to make sure there are no mistakes. If there is one card for the foursome, the simple answer is DON'T LET YOUR FATHER KEEP SCORE! Just say, "relax, Pops, I've got it this time.". Then, get that card and hold onto it for the full 18. And don't even ask each player wht their score is. It's easy enough to count it up as you're going along, unless there is a blow up hole.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Elmer

Thank you for the responses.

First off, for some reason I typed the original post at work and it had paragraphs, but when it was posted it did not. I tried to edit the post but was simply unable to do so.

Secondly, my father has never been one to "let me win". regardless of a game of Horse, Wiffle ball or anything. He is a competitor and refuses to loose and gets pissed when he does so.

Unfortunately he learned golf the wrong way. He learned it by himself, playing alone on a course, hitting balls until he got it right. To this day if he is chipping on a green and misses he will drop a ball and try again. He used to play the better of the balls until I barked at him for it, because he was counting the wrong ball.

Like I said what he does or anyone does when we are just playing a round is none of my concern. I keep my score and that is that. what gets me is when you take 4 mulligans and tell me you birdied a hole.

This is a tough situation for me and I fear that after I call him out he will back out of the league after this year, but so be it!

Thanks

I think you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and this story is one of the first I've read which makes me glad that my Dad didn't play golf.  We didn't have a lot in common, and he was probably the most unathletic man I've ever known.  He'd have been a poor golfer (no worries about him ever joining a league), and it wouldn't have helped our relationship - not that it would have bothered me, but it would have bothered him.

[Wisguy]

That's maybe the most asinine thing I've ever read on this forum. I've been playing golf for 20 years (save the comments about why I've not gotten any better since year 3) and I have never, ever heard anyone suggest that carrying an extra ball was for any reason other than to have one handy in the event of hitting one's shot into the woods, water hazard, etc.... Maybe honesty or lack there of has been an issue for you personally Shorty or with the people with whom you play, but in my two decades of playing non-competitive golf (never played a tournament) I've never heard of anyone equating having more than one ball in one's pocket as being a sign of cheating. ====================================================================================================================================================== Given that the PGA tour average for fairways hit is 60% http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/golf/pga/stats/leaders and not many amateurs are coming close to touring pro driving consistency (unless they're one of those old guys who always knocks it 180yds straight ahead), most people are driving half or more of their tee shots off-line. Unless one is missing the fairway by only a few degrees right or left or playing wide open, hazard-free courses, that eventually will lead to lost balls - it's a part of the game. Most people I know lose at least one or two balls a round. Granted, I tend to play courses with a lot of woods, deep rough and water. It would be nice to complete a round or two with the same ball, but let me assure you that the typical higher handicap golfer (i.e. one of the overwhelming majority of golfers) loses balls regularly - single digit handicap golfers may not lose balls often, but the rest of us do. =================================================================================================================================================== Clearly, Shorty's comment is motivated by the fact that I criticized him for aggressively and cowardly bullying a 12 year-old in another thread (how else can one describe an adult calling a child names on an internet forum?). Shorty, focus on being more insightful than snarky and it will be a good thing. ======================================================================================================================================================= *** I'm temporarily using an older computer that has problems with this site and even though I cleared out my cookies and browsing history, it's still ignoring my paragraph breaks and running everything into a single mega-paragraph, hence, the extra lines in lieu of paragraph breaks.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Wisguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty

Having spare balls in your bag is handy enough. Just go and grab one. How long does it take? Certainly not 30 seconds. Maybe 10 at most?

Seriously - you are hitting provisionals or are OB so often that you have balls in your pockets?

It's not cheating, but it will certainly raise suspicions that you are cheating or intend to cheat, even if you are an honest golfer.

That's maybe the most asinine thing I've ever read on this forum. I've been playing golf for 20 years (save the comments about why I've not gotten any better since year 3) and I have never, ever heard anyone suggest that carrying an extra ball was for any reason other than to have one handy in the event of hitting one's shot into the woods, water hazard, etc.... Maybe honesty or lack there of has been an issue for you personally Shorty or with the people with whom you play, but in my two decades of playing non-competitive golf (never played a tournament) I've never heard of anyone equating having more than one ball in one's pocket as being a sign of cheating. ====================================================================================================================================================== Given that the PGA tour average for fairways hit is 60% http://content.usatoday.com/sportsdata/golf/pga/stats/leaders and not many amateurs are coming close to touring pro driving consistency (unless they're one of those old guys who always knocks it 180yds straight ahead), most people are driving half or more of their tee shots off-line. Unless one is missing the fairway by only a few degrees right or left or playing wide open, hazard-free courses, that eventually will lead to lost balls - it's a part of the game. Most people I know lose at least one or two balls a round. Granted, I tend to play courses with a lot of woods, deep rough and water. It would be nice to complete a round or two with the same ball, but let me assure you that the typical higher handicap golfer (i.e. one of the overwhelming majority of golfers) loses balls regularly - single digit handicap golfers may not lose balls often, but the rest of us do.

Yep, gotta agree with this.  I've always carried a second ball in my left pocket.  I do it to save time.  My bag may be on the other side of the fairway along with the cart when I yank an approach shot out into the 3 foot high native.  I'm going to immediately play a provisional ball, maybe not even a provisional if I know the lie I'm likely have with the original ball.  I may just call it unplayable and take the penalty without looking.

The two balls I carry will always be marked differently for proper identification.

[RickK]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Yep, gotta agree with this.  I've always carried a second ball in my left pocket.  I do it to save time.  My bag may be on the other side of the fairway along with the cart when I yank an approach shot out into the 3 foot high native.  I'm going to immediately play a provisional ball, maybe not even a provisional if I know the lie I'm likely have with the original ball.  I may just call it unplayable and take the penalty without looking.

The two balls I carry will always be marked differently for proper identification.

I do the same and have been doing so in tournaments for years.  On the first tee, I always announce the ball I am playing and how it is marked.  I also mention that I have a 2nd ball and how it is marked differently from the first ball.  It has never been a problem and I have never been accused of cheating.  I play about 36 tournament rounds each year.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Wisguy

That's maybe the most asinine thing I've ever read on this forum. I've been playing golf for 20 years (save the comments about why I've not gotten any better since year 3) and I have never, ever heard anyone suggest that carrying an extra ball was for any reason other than to have one handy

Clearly, Shorty's comment is motivated by the fact that I criticized him for aggressively and cowardly bullying a 12 year-old in another thread (how else can one describe an adult calling a child names on an internet forum?).

1. Having a ball in your bag is handy enough. How can it really save time? It's like conceding putts of three feet to "save time".

2. Absolutely not. I don't even look at the names of posters. I play the ball not the man and respond to the comment. Wouldn't even know who wrote what, even the charmer who wrote "STFU" the other day. The one who seems to believe that humanity is divided into "classes". Almost fell off my chair there. I'm focused on the "what" not the "who". I can defend attacking a brat mofre than he can defend that disgusting attitude.

As for "bullying", if you want to accept an internet troll who calls adults "rubbish" and who asks about legal action when he ignores warnings and then fears being kicked out of a club (which I doubt has actually happened) I can live with it. You can send him a hug through the ether.

[Wisguy]

You're making an assumption, a false one, that all golfers are never more than a few steps from their bag. This is generally true of those who walk, but it is not the case for those who ride a cart (something I've unfortunately found myself doing lately as my usually golfing buddy has a bad knee and can't walk more than 9 holes). Carts often must be parked on the path 40+ feet from the tee box. To speed up play, one player often drops the other one by his ball with a few clubs and a putter and then speeds off to his/her ball, to meet up at the green - on holes where I've sliced and my buddy has hooked, or vice versa, it's not uncommon to find myself well over 100 yards from my bag. You're making another assumption for those who walk that they have their bags organized - I've watched golfers spend up to a minute hunting through multiple pockets in their bags trying to find a ball they wanted to play, out of a couple of dozen found balls or balls left over from past rounds. ====================================================================================================== I can't speak as to the custom in playing tournament golf or in playing golf in countries other than the U.S., but if you went to the typical golf course here, approached golfers on casual rounds, asked if they had a spare ball in their pockets, and proceeded to call those who answered yes "potential cheaters," you'd find that at least half of the players on the course would be telling you to go copulate with yourself.

[Ernest Jones]

I cannot speak for others but I was not insinuating that there is anything wrong with having a spare ball in your pocket. I generally have a spare and it has the same identifying mark as my other one. I mark them all the same when I buy them, never occurred to me to have a different mark for provisional balls but I see the logic. I was referring specifically to the old 'hole in the pocket' routine where the cheater lets one fall down the inside of his pant leg onto the ground by his feet.

[dave s]

Originally Posted by Wisguy

You make this sound like it's tantamount to cheating.

I believe 'swapping out' balls on the green from your pocket IS cheating! Retirees aren't trying to take money out of my pocket so frankly I don't care.  Never seen a 70-something NOT have a spare ball or two to be used for whatever reason, (legal or illegal) on a golf course.  It's just the way they play.  Just like the automatic 2-putt.

Again, I don't care.  Not begrudging anyone's version of golf.  It's just what I've experienced.

dave

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by dave s

I believe 'swapping out' balls on the green from your pocket IS cheating! Retirees aren't trying to take money out of my pocket so frankly I don't care.  Never seen a 70-something NOT have a spare ball or two to be used for whatever reason, (legal or illegal) on a golf course.  It's just the way they play.  Just like the automatic 2-putt.

Again, I don't care.  Not begrudging anyone's version of golf.  It's just what I've experienced.

dave

I had one of the worst golfing days of my entire life, conveniently when I hooked up with Dave here this past weekend. I should have kept spare balls in my pockets for convenience because my driving was more F'd up than you can imagine. Worst day ever...

On a side note, isn't it uncomfortable as hell for some of you guys to walk around with 1 or 2 balls in your pockets? I can only carry my ball marker/repair tool and a few tees. I don't even golf with my wallet or anything else in my pockets. I find it annoying and uncomfortable, but that's just me.

[TJBam]

Regarding extra ball in pocket.  Let me introduce you to my routine on the first tee box:

"I am hitting a Titleist DT solo (1-4) with a T1 on it.  My next one is a T2 in my pocket, T3, up to T6 in the bag or cart (on the bad days)"

No reason to not always be ready.  Of course anyone who wants to cheat will find a way, by switching out the balls when no one is looking etc.

[TJBam]

Originally Posted by Spyder

I had one of the worst golfing days of my entire life, conveniently when I hooked up with Dave here this past weekend. I should have kept spare balls in my pockets for convenience because my driving was more F'd up than you can imagine. Worst day ever...

On a side note, isn't it uncomfortable as hell for some of you guys to walk around with 1 or 2 balls in your pockets? I can only carry my ball marker/repair tool and a few tees. I don't even golf with my wallet or anything else in my pockets. I find it annoying and uncomfortable, but that's just me.

I keep my wallet (makes me think it is a scorecard/distance card like a pro), tees, a quarter or marker, and another identified and marked ball that has been verbally identified and showed to the group in order to differentiate it from my first ball that may or may not be in play. (Did I cover my bases???)

But no, my worst nightmare is having to play with keys, cell phone, etc in my pocket.  I just use a tee as a ball mark repair tool. I even put my starting receipt in my wallet because I don't like the crinkle it leaves in my pocket.  Lol.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I admit I get annoyed when people don't have an extra ball in pocket when teeing off.  Sometimes the cart is near, but some boxes are a bit of a walk from the cart.  I always offer them my extra ball to try to speed things up. But rarely is it accepted. I don't play super nice balls and the guy who just hit it in the water somehow is too good to play a Pinacle (or whatever) for one hole.

That being said, I wouldn't know who had a ball in their pocket or who didn't until something like this happened.  To consider a ball in pocket a potential cheater is a little 'cart ahead of the horse'.

[hacker101]

He is your father and not knowing what relationship you have with him, this could be a very difficult to deal with you or for anyone to give any advise.

IMO it seems you have three ways to go.

1. You pull him aside and call him out, if you do this you could use the spin of you have taught me to be a upstanding man so you need to know this comes from the hart. Tell him and hope he sees that he has done a great job with you. I would think he will respect you more after this then to keep letting this go on. It could be a bit uncomfortable for a bit?

2. Turn him over to the league and let them deal with it or not that would be up to them.

3. Do not play with him any longer, you can tell him why or not up to you.

I don't have a dad so, take what I have to offer with a grain of salt, but you need to weigh your relationship and what the game means to you.

Good luck I really hope this works out for you.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by hacker101

He is your father and not knowing what relationship you have with him, this could be a very difficult to deal with you or for anyone to give any advise.

IMO it seems you have three ways to go.

1. You pull him aside and call him out, if you do this you could use the spin of you have taught me to be a upstanding man so you need to know this comes from the hart. Tell him and hope he sees that he has done a great job with you. I would think he will respect you more after this then to keep letting this go on. It could be a bit uncomfortable for a bit?

2. Turn him over to the league and let them deal with it or not that would be up to them.

3. Do not play with him any longer, you can tell him why or not up to you.

I don't have a dad so, take what I have to offer with a grain of salt, but you need to weigh your relationship and what the game means to you.

Good luck I really hope this works out for you.

In my opinion, the options I placed in bold are the wrong way to do things. Turning your father in... I won't even touch on that. I understand it is an option , but I that's not something I would be able to consider a valid choice .

Secondly, I wouldn't want to avoid spending time with my father. Life is short and given you have a decent relationship, you should spend every opportunity that you can together.

Just talk to him, man to man, and resolve the issue accordingly. That's the only option in my opinion.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by hacker101

He is your father and not knowing what relationship you have with him, this could be a very difficult to deal with you or for anyone to give any advise.

IMO it seems you have three ways to go.

1. You pull him aside and call him out, if you do this you could use the spin of you have taught me to be a upstanding man so you need to know this comes from the hart. Tell him and hope he sees that he has done a great job with you. I would think he will respect you more after this then to keep letting this go on. It could be a bit uncomfortable for a bit?

2. Turn him over to the league and let them deal with it or not that would be up to them.

3. Do not play with him any longer, you can tell him why or not up to you.

I don't have a dad so, take what I have to offer with a grain of salt, but you need to weigh your relationship and what the game means to you.

Good luck I really hope this works out for you.

Would you want your son to turn you in? Or worse yet, would you turn in your father in law?

I would never turn in someone, if I thought that they were playing for fun.

If it was a qualifier for a high school, college or even beyond, that's a totally different story. I would be really strict with anyone in my family to make sure that they score perfectly. I am sure that officials would be there presiding, and watching all their actions. Vijay S. walked around with that albatross on his neck for his whole career over something he did when he was 16 or younger. I would not want my kids or anyone I associate with to ever have to carry this burden.

The rules were taught to me early on in the game, by my kids and others whom I ask.

Honestly, my score doesn't matter enough to me to cheat (especially others).

However, that being said the title of this thread should read "Should I turn in my dad for cheating in a tournament, whom I played golf with for 30 years, and have him just give up on life?"

I'd be more inclined to tell him not to do any more tournaments.

[rehmwa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyder

On a side note, isn't it uncomfortable as hell for some of you guys to walk around with 1 or 2 balls in your pockets?

Cargo shorts......but don't get people started on that...  (i'd also accept 1 or 2 "extra" balls in your pockets if in a mockery mood)

I'll keep it in mind - if anyone starts to 'pat down' the field sometime I'll know why now.

seems to be three camps here:

1 - keep a spare in case you lose your ball and your cart is over on the other side of the fairway - or even 20 feet away is still a delay

2 - keep a spare to slip into the cup when no one is looking

3 - actually #1, but now self conscious about it.....   ; )

I'm a 1 (pocket has ball, 5/6 tees, and my divot tool/ball marker - nothing else, absolutely, not even the receipt).  But I'm self conscious about pace of play and lost balls.  I'm also the guy with 2 dozen balls in the bag but only loses 2 or 3 at most during a round.  Sue me.

On topic:  how to deal with them?

1 - if they play for money......I don't play with them

2 - if they don't play for money.....encourage them, if it results in ready(er) golf

Quote:

I'd be more inclined to tell him not to do any more tournaments.

'ask him', but this is a very decent answer that respects everyone involved (including the other players that never found out)

[hacker101]

Originally Posted by Lihu

Would you want your son to turn you in? Or worse yet, would you turn in your father in law?

I would never turn in someone, if I thought that they were playing for fun.

If it was a qualifier for a high school, college or even beyond, that's a totally different story. I would be really strict with anyone in my family to make sure that they score perfectly. I am sure that officials would be there presiding, and watching all their actions. Vijay S. walked around with that albatross on his neck for his whole career over something he did when he was 16 or younger. I would not want my kids or anyone I associate with to ever have to carry this burden.

The rules were taught to me early on in the game, by my kids and others whom I ask.

Honestly, my score doesn't matter enough to me to cheat (especially others).

However, that being said the title of this thread should read "Should I turn in my dad for cheating in a tournament, whom I played golf with for 30 years, and have him just give up on life?"

I'd be more inclined to tell him not to do any more tournaments.

For me no I would not turn either in to be honest with you. But I made myself clear on all outings out side of our playing group that the rules will be followed up front. If you don't know ask, if I don't know we will find out. I would call out my son and father in law right off and never let it get that far. But that is the relationship I have with them. As I said I don't have a dad other then my father in law and he already knows how I am about cheating and lying but he does not have an ego. He just wants to keep up, and my son plays his game for better or worse, but that is what I expect from an eagle scout.

As far tournament play if you are in a tournament and are cheating then you should be called out after all it is a gentleman's sport. And I agree you should not play in them if you are going to cheat.

I am with you Lihu it is all fun for me so if I am the worst player out there oh well I don't have an ego, I am there for fun and times with the guys.

But in the end the poster will need to decide what he can live with.