Ball completely buried in ground.

[Jeremie Boop]

Last night in league play I hit my approach just right of the green on the last hole. My opponent saw the ball come down with no bounce, so I know it didn't bounce ob or land ob/in water. We go over to where my ball should have landed and there are several extremely soft spots in the area. The grass is bubbled up and if you push on it you can feel the ground underneath squish about. We came to the conclusion that my ball landed in this area and basically got swallowed by the overly saturated ground. I took a drop with penalty for unplayable within 2 club lengths *think it was closer to 1/2 a club* back from that area, no closer to the pin and played out. I ended up saving bogey with my up and down. My question is, was this correct? I did end up winning the hole anyway, but for handicap purposes I want to make sure my scores are always correct.

[Ernest Jones]

I don't think you can declare a ball unplayable if you haven't actually found it! :-P I think it should have been stroke and distance as it was a lost ball.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I don't think you can declare a ball unplayable if you haven't actually found it!

I think it should have been stroke and distance as it was a lost ball.

Technically you can do that but the only option is R28a which, in essence, is exactly the same as R27-1, i.e. stroke & distance.

In the OP situation the ball was lost unless that mushy area had been declared and marked as GUR (Ground Under Repair). Obviously it was not so the ball was lost as stated by Ernest Jones. Having not returned to the spot where previous stroke had been hit the player played from a wrong place (R20-7) and incurred a penalty of 2 strokes. Furthermore it was a serious breach and the player should have corrected his error before playing out on the next hole (R20-7c). As he did not he was DQ'd for the round. How that affects the hcp in USGA system I cannot tell.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I don't think you can declare a ball unplayable if you haven't actually found it!

I think it should have been stroke and distance as it was a lost ball.

That would be unfortunate, especially being that the other guy saw the ball land in this area and there would be no way for me to find the ball in the slop that it landed in. However, if that is what the ruling should have been I would accept it.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Technically you can do that but the only option is R28a which, in essence, is exactly the same as R27-1, i.e. stroke & distance.

In the OP situation the ball was lost unless that mushy area had been declared and marked as GUR (Ground Under Repair). Obviously it was not so the ball was lost as stated by Ernest Jones. Having not returned to the spot where previous stroke had been hit the player played from a wrong place (R20-7) and incurred a penalty of 2 strokes. Furthermore it was a serious breach and the player should have corrected his error before playing out on the next hole (R20-7c). As he did not he was DQ'd for the round. How that affects the hcp in USGA system I cannot tell.

I "think" but am not certain, that the areas were outlined in spray paint. I know they were the week before but I can't be certain about last night.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I don't think you can declare a ball unplayable if you haven't actually found it!

I think it should have been stroke and distance as it was a lost ball.

Technically you can do that but the only option is R28a which, in essence, is exactly the same as R27-1, i.e. stroke & distance.

In the OP situation the ball was lost unless that mushy area had been declared and marked as GUR (Ground Under Repair). Obviously it was not so the ball was lost as stated by Ernest Jones. Having not returned to the spot where previous stroke had been hit the player played from a wrong place (R20-7) and incurred a penalty of 2 strokes. Furthermore it was a serious breach and the player should have corrected his error before playing out on the next hole (R20-7c). As he did not he was DQ'd for the round. How that affects the hcp in USGA system I cannot tell.

All of what Ignorant said is correct.  You cannot "assume" a ball is embedded.  If the area qualified as casual water (meaning that there is standing water, or water wells up around your feet when you stand there), then you can take relief, even to substituting another ball, but it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is indeed lost in the casual water.

If the area is not casual water and is not marked as ground under repair, then it's just an embedded ball through the green, but not in a closely mowed area, so no relief is allowed without penalty even if the ball is found.  Since the ball was not found and identified, the only recourse is stroke and distance.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

All of what Ignorant said is correct.  You cannot "assume" a ball is embedded.  If the area qualified as casual water (meaning that there is standing water, or water wells up around your feet when you stand there), then you can take relief, even to substituting another ball, but it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is indeed lost in the casual water.

If the area is not casual water and is not marked as ground under repair, then it's just an embedded ball through the green, but not in a closely mowed area, so no relief is allowed without penalty even if the ball is found.  Since the ball was not found and identified, the only recourse is stroke and distance.

I understand that this would be the case if nobody saw the ball land there, however if the person I was playing against watched the ball come down there wouldn't that be considered "virtual certainty"? And yes, water did come up out of the grass when you walked on it, as well as mud. I was lucky I didn't break through and lose a shoe!

[saevel25]

Quote:

25-2 . Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole . The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green . “Closely mown area” means any area of the course , including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

Since you did not find your ball and could not identify it,

Quote:

c . Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes

If a ball is lost as a result of not being found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke , as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5 ).

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball, that has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1 ), is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3 ), is in an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1 ) or is in a water hazard (Rule 26-1 ), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.

Quote:

Abnormal Ground Conditions

An “ abnormal ground condition ” is any casual water , ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal , a reptile or a bird.

Quote:

Casual Water

“ Casual water ’’ is any temporary accumulation of water on the course that is not in a water hazard and is visible before or after the player takes his stance . Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments , at the option of the player. Manufactured ice is an obstruction . Dew and frost are not casual water .

If you know for certain the ball landed were there is casual water, you can drop a new ball with out penalty. But only if the ball was imbedded in casual water. If its just overly soft ground, not casual water, then you have a typical lost ball.

Quote:

(i) Through the Green : If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot through the green , the player may substitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(i) .

[Jeremie Boop]

Rofl, well, I'm still not totally sure what the call is. Either gave myself a penalty when I didn't need to or I didn't give myself enough of a penalty when I needed to. I do know there was standing water in that area and standing on the grass there caused water to seep out. I may check today to see if it was outlined in paint or not. The other people didn't even want me to take a penalty stroke but I was trying to be safe.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

I understand that this would be the case if nobody saw the ball land there, however if the person I was playing against watched the ball come down there wouldn't that be considered "virtual certainty"?

Unfortunately not, unless that area was GUR or abnormal ground conditions. We all have had situations where we clearly see the place where our ball lands and yet could not find it. This is one of those cases.

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

And yes, water did come up out of the grass when you walked on it, as well as mud. I was lucky I didn't break through and lose a shoe!

Casual water is also a tricky thing in this case as you could not find the exact spot where your ball was. Thus you could not tell whether these was casual water just on that spot or where you would have taken your stance as you did not know where to take it. Certainly if you both saw that your ball disappeared in a uniform area of casual water (not just mud!!) then you would have been entitled to relief.

I am afraid you just have to take your medicine and accept this as one of those incidents where you did everything right but the outcome was not favourable. It happens in golf.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Unfortunately not, unless that area was GUR or abnormal ground conditions. We all have had situations where we clearly see the place where our ball lands and yet could not find it. This is one of those cases.

Casual water is also a tricky thing in this case as you could not find the exact spot where your ball was. Thus you could not tell whether these was casual water just on that spot or where you would have taken your stance as you did not know where to take it. Certainly if you both saw that your ball disappeared in a uniform area of casual water (not just mud!!) then you would have been entitled to relief.

I am afraid you just have to take your medicine and accept this as one of those incidents where you did everything right but the outcome was not favourable. It happens in golf.

you don't need to be totally exact. If he see his ball come down, you can get a pretty good estimate of were the ball landed. Just walk around the general area, usually casual water takes up a pretty good side foot print. I hit my tee shots a long way, i can see them land, and i could walk and give you a 3x3 yard area were the ball would have landed.

But yes if casual water is in a small area, i wouldn't take the chance of being for certain the ball was there. If its a pretty large area, i would just take it as the ball was in the casual water. Its a case by case basis.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Rofl, well, I'm still not totally sure what the call is. Either gave myself a penalty when I didn't need to or I didn't give myself enough of a penalty when I needed to. I do know there was standing water in that area and standing on the grass there caused water to seep out. I may check today to see if it was outlined in paint or not. The other people didn't even want me to take a penalty stroke but I was trying to be safe.

I assume that this was a casual round with friends?  If so your group can make such determinations for itself.  If it was an area which on a properly marked course, or a round run by a competition committee, then relief would be given if there was virtual certainty that the ball was lost in that area.  The USGA acknowledges that not all rounds of golf are played under the auspices of a committee, and in such a case, the group is their own committee.  As long as you don't go hog wild (like playing preferred lies without any justification, or inventing your own rules), you can determine when a spot should or shouldn't be called GUR, or modify the embedded ball rule by extending it through the green.  This is the sort situation which would be resolved by a committee if such was available, and lacking that luxury, in fairness you can make some of those decisions among your group.

It can be a slippery slope if you don't have a good grasp of the rules, because you are not allowed to just pick and choose what rules you like or don't like.  You also don't want to be discussing an issue while other players back up behind you.  It's a good idea to learn Rule 3-3 and use it when in doubt, then hash out the decisions with a rule book in one hand and a beer in the other after the round is over.  That way you don't waste a lot of time haggling during play.  Back at the clubhouse/pro shop you will also have the expertise (hopefully) of the pro to help sort it out.  Or you can bring the question here for a lively discussion.

Rule 3-3:

3-3. Doubt As To Procedure

a. Procedure

In stroke play, if a competitor is doubtful of his rights or the correct procedure during the play of a hole, he may, without penalty, complete the hole with two balls.

After the doubtful situation has arisen and before taking further action, thecompetitor must announce to his marker or fellow-competitor that he intends to play two balls and which ball he wishes to count if the Rules permit.

The competitor must report the facts of the situation to the Committee before returning his score card. If he fails to do so, he is disqualified.

Note: If the competitor takes further action before dealing with the doubtful situation, Rule 3-3 is not applicable. The score with the original ball counts or, if the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the score with the first ball put into play counts, even if the Rules do not allow the procedure adopted for that ball. However, the competitor incurs no penalty for having played a second ball, and any penalty strokes incurred solely by playing that ball do not count in his score.

b. Determination of Score for Hole

(i) If the ball that the competitor selected in advance to count has been played in accordance with the Rules, the score with that ball is the competitor’sscore for the hole. Otherwise, the score with the other ball counts if the Rulesallow the procedure adopted for that ball.

(ii) If the competitor fails to announce in advance his decision to complete the hole with two balls, or which ball he wishes to count, the score with the original ball counts, provided it has been played in accordance with the Rules. If the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the first ball put into play counts, provided it has been played in accordance with the Rules. Otherwise, the score with the other ball counts if the Rules allow the procedure adopted for that ball.

Note 1: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 3-3, the strokes made after this Rule has been invoked with the ball ruled not to count andpenaltystrokes incurred solely by playing that ball are disregarded.

Note 2: A second ball played under Rule 3-3 is not a provisional ball under Rule 27-2.

[Asheville]

Surely a ball not found in casual water doesn't have to be "not found" simply because the water isn't deep.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Asheville

Surely a ball not found in casual water doesn't have to be "not found" simply because the water isn't deep.

That would be a bit harsh, wouldn't it?  The rules don't make any such distinction.  If it fits the definition of casual water, it makes no difference how deep the water is.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I assume that this was a casual round with friends?  If so your group can make such determinations for itself.  If it was an area which on a properly marked course, or a round run by a competition committee, then relief would be given if there was virtual certainty that the ball was lost in that area.  The USGA acknowledges that not all rounds of golf are played under the auspices of a committee, and in such a case, the group is their own committee.  As long as you don't go hog wild (like playing preferred lies without any justification, or inventing your own rules), you can determine when a spot should or shouldn't be called GUR, or modify the embedded ball rule by extending it through the green.  This is the sort situation which would be resolved by a committee if such was available, and lacking that luxury, in fairness you can make some of those decisions among your group.

It can be a slippery slope if you don't have a good grasp of the rules, because you are not allowed to just pick and choose what rules you like or don't like.  You also don't want to be discussing an issue while other players back up behind you.  It's a good idea to learn Rule 3-3 and use it when in doubt, then hash out the decisions with a rule book in one hand and a beer in the other after the round is over.  That way you don't waste a lot of time haggling during play.  Back at the clubhouse/pro shop you will also have the expertise (hopefully) of the pro to help sort it out.  Or you can bring the question here for a lively discussion.

Rule 3-3:

It wasn't a casual round, was league. This league plays by winter rules so they typically don't even bother with playing by the real rules most of the time. Case in point, one of my opponents was taking 7's on a lot of holes even though he was probably really 8 or 9. I didn't care because I was in a under his score regardless so I had won the point for the hole. There is no "committee" as it were for this league, just one guy who is in charge. I can discuss it with him to validate what he thinks, but I can almost guarantee he'll say I shouldn't have taken a penalty just based on the way they play. However, under the rules posted here I could reasonably say that the ruling could go either way depending on who was there to make the call.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

It wasn't a casual round, was league. This league plays by winter rules so they typically don't even bother with playing by the real rules most of the time. Case in point, one of my opponents was taking 7's on a lot of holes even though he was probably really 8 or 9. I didn't care because I was in a under his score regardless so I had won the point for the hole. There is no "committee" as it were for this league, just one guy who is in charge. I can discuss it with him to validate what he thinks, but I can almost guarantee he'll say I shouldn't have taken a penalty just based on the way they play. However, under the rules posted here I could reasonably say that the ruling could go either way depending on who was there to make the call.

In that case, nobody can really make a call on it except for him.  If they don't play by the rules, then all bets are off.  Our only point of reference is the Rules of Golf, and without adherence to that, there's nothing else we can do.  At least you have been told how it's supposed to be done.

Mini rant (not directed at Jeramie):  I don't know why people come in here asking rules questions, then when they get the answer they invalidate it by saying that their group or league doesn't follow the rules anyway.  If they honestly want to know the rule, that's fine, but if all they want is someone to agree with them, or to get support for not playing by the rules then they are just wasting our time.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

In that case, nobody can really make a call on it except for him.  If they don't play by the rules, then all bets are off.  Our only point of reference is the Rules of Golf, and without adherence to that, there's nothing else we can do.  At least you have been told how it's supposed to be done.

Mini rant (not directed at Jeramie):  I don't know why people come in here asking rules questions, then when they get the answer they invalidate it by saying that their group or league doesn't follow the rules anyway.  If they honestly want to know the rule, that's fine, but if all they want is someone to agree with them, or to get support for not playing by the rules then they are just wasting our time.

I definitely come here to learn the rules, I play by them regardless of whether or not the rest of my league does. The reason I commented that they don't adhere to the rules is as a point of reference when it was said to bring it to the committee. I even started playing provisional balls when I am not sure if I'll find my first shot even though they don't really want you to.

Either way it should have been done, by the rules I turned in an incorrect card and therefore would be dq'd. The league I'm in wouldn't do that, of course, but I know that for future if anything is in question talk to the committee or person in charge of the league/tournament/outing then?

[tomvk77]

yep the only good rule in this is lost ball and go back to the place you last hit it. on a par 3 i assume it is on the tee

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

I do know there was standing water in that area and standing on the grass there caused water to seep out. I may check today to see if it was outlined in paint or not. The other people didn't even want me to take a penalty stroke but I was trying to be safe.

That sounds like casual water to me. If the ball is lost in casual water, then you get free relief.

If the ground had been marked as GUR, the same applies.

25-1 c . Ball in Abnormal Ground Condition Not Found

It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward an abnormal ground condition is in such a condition. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the abnormal ground condition . In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1 .

If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition , the player may take relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition must be determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player must proceed as follows:

(i) Through the Green : If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot through the green , the player may substitute another ball, without penalty, and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(i) .