235 Out on This Par Five - What's the Play?

[boogielicious]

I put Erik's recommendation into practice in my last league round.  The last par 5 (565 yd and 1 hdcp), my drive went right.  My second shot left me with a 180 yd uphill shot from the left rough on a side hill lie with the ball above my feet. Instead of laying up to 100 (there is a hazard from 95 - 80 in), I used my 3H (normal 190 yd club) and aimed for the fairway just short of the green.  Long is bad because it is a multi-tier green with steep slopes and ridges.  Left and right are deep traps.

My shot ended up about 5 yards short of the green. I chipped up but past the hole by 6 feet and missed the dang putt. But the strategy definitely put me into position to par a very tough hole for me.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I love it when a plan comes together

[iacas]

You know how they say even Augusta National is flattened when you view it on TV? Well, the same applies here, but this video should give you a little more sense of the scale. Look at the guy on the green, for example.

The top of the green where the flag is (very nearly where it was when I played and posed the question) is over 3% slope, and it's the flattest part of the green.

(Video uploading…)

[Maddog10]

I agree with your answer Erik. It's the same play that I suggested, but I'm always a fairly conservative player. I look for the best option to make par, and then try to get up and down for birdie with "ideally" a par being worst case. Going for it in this instance does not win the "risk vs. reward" asessment for me.

I'm still hung up on the #100 PGA tour pro only hitting the green 75% of the time from 100-125 yards. I'm assuming this counts all shots from this distance, including the rough and bunkers? A PGA pro is going to hit the green 95%+ of the time from the fairway at these distances. I guess I could see the occasional miss if they are going for a tight pin, or over/under spin the ball, but from the fairway it's going to be way over 75%. I'm going to hit

I enjoyed your "answer". A lot of thought went into it and I always appreciate an informative post. Thanks.

[Mr Smell Good]

I'll go ahead and post this here instead of making a new thread because this conversation made me think of it.  What do you guys think about GIR strategy on a par 5.  We reinforced how important GIR is in this thread.  Let's say you have a 500 yard hole that is relatively straight.  I usually find myself with a couple scenarios:

1) Hit the driver, then hit a 3 wood gunning for the green but most likely ending up somewhere in the rough nearby.  Obviously even the pros wouldn't regularly hit a green from 230 out but with an average player you're more likely to put yourself in a tough lie or be behind a tree or in sand.  However, you also have a chance to hit the green and be under GIR.

2) Hit the driver (lets say 265), hit an 8 or 9 iron that you feel very comfortable keeping in the fairway another 150 yards, and then you're left with an 85 yard shot to the green with a favorable lie.  This would be about a full swing with my lob wedge which I feel pretty good about hitting greens with.

It's a risk reward situation that obviously depends on the hole but is option 2 usually going to be best for your average player?

P.S. Option 3 is missing the fairway with the driver which leaves you no choice but to play option 2

[mvmac]

I'll go ahead and post this here instead of making a new thread because this conversation made me think of it.  What do you guys think about GIR strategy on a par 5.  We reinforced how important GIR is in this thread.  Let's say you have a 500 yard hole that is relatively straight.  I usually find myself with a couple scenarios:

1) Hit the driver, then hit a 3 wood gunning for the green but most likely ending up somewhere in the rough nearby.  Obviously even the pros wouldn't regularly hit a green from 230 out but with an average player you're more likely to put yourself in a tough lie or be behind a tree or in sand.  However, you also have a chance to hit the green and be under GIR.

2) Hit the driver (lets say 265), hit an 8 or 9 iron that you feel very comfortable keeping in the fairway another 150 yards, and then you're left with an 85 yard shot to the green with a favorable lie.  This would be about a full swing with my lob wedge which I feel pretty good about hitting greens with.

It's a risk reward situation that obviously depends on the hole but is option 2 usually going to be best for your average player?

P.S. Option 3 is missing the fairway with the driver which leaves you no choice but to play option 2

Did you get a chance to check out this thread?

http://thesandtrap.com/t/69652/235-out-on-this-par-five-whats-the-play

[Mr Smell Good]

Did you get a chance to check out this thread?

http://thesandtrap.com/t/69652/235-out-on-this-par-five-whats-the-play

I did actually.  I suppose that thread has enough "par 5 second shot" analysis to keep me from even asking this one in here.  But that was from the point of view of a scratch golfer who feels that no matter what club he uses, it's going straight at the green.  For me in that scenario, laying up just short is a little riskier because I would have to use a club like a 4-iron that is less accurate.

[Ernest Jones]

My scores have dropped steadily since I started using b) more often. My basic rule of thumb is if I have very little chance of hitting (or holding) the green I'll go for the lay up. My reasoning is there is generally a lot more trouble around the green then there is 50+ yards out, I'm not too concerned with the bunkers as I generally play fairly well out of bunkers but there's usually forest encroaching around the green complex on the courses I play and those kinds of areas can really be penal - lost ball, horrible lies, big rocks and stumps, trees blocking your line...

If I think I have a decent chance at hitting and staying on the green and the likely misses aren't too brutal I'll go for it but if it's a hit'n'hope type scenario I'll start thinking about where I want to attack the green from on my next shot instead of trying to force it with a low percentage shot.

Obviously the risk-reward threshold shifts quite a bit the lower the handicap so my strategy may or may not be good for your scores but it has certainly helped me keep the snowmen and worse off the card.

[bplewis24]

I'll go ahead and post this here instead of making a new thread because this conversation made me think of it.  What do you guys think about GIR strategy on a par 5.  We reinforced how important GIR is in this thread.  Let's say you have a 500 yard hole that is relatively straight.  I usually find myself with a couple scenarios:

1) Hit the driver, then hit a 3 wood gunning for the green but most likely ending up somewhere in the rough nearby.  Obviously even the pros wouldn't regularly hit a green from 230 out but with an average player you're more likely to put yourself in a tough lie or be behind a tree or in sand.  However, you also have a chance to hit the green and be under GIR.

2) Hit the driver (lets say 265), hit an 8 or 9 iron that you feel very comfortable keeping in the fairway another 150 yards, and then you're left with an 85 yard shot to the green with a favorable lie.  This would be about a full swing with my lob wedge which I feel pretty good about hitting greens with.

It's a risk reward situation that obviously depends on the hole but is option 2 usually going to be best for your average player?

P.S. Option 3 is missing the fairway with the driver which leaves you no choice but to play option 2

Your question (as it's framed with it's underlying assumptions) really boils down to one question:

Do you think you have a better chance of reaching GIR by chipping onto a green from the rough within 30 yards or hitting a full shot from 80-100 yards in the fairway?

Most of the time, chipping is going to be preferable for me assuming you're not short-sided or having to chip over a bunker to a tucked, pin, etc.  So when going for the green, I'll often consider which side I want my miss to be (obviously not always possessing the ability to miss to that side on command).

[Mr Smell Good]

Your question (as it's framed with it's underlying assumptions) really boils down to one question:

Do you think you have a better chance of reaching GIR by chipping onto a green from the rough within 30 yards or hitting a full shot from 80-100 yards in the fairway?

Most of the time, chipping is going to be preferable for me assuming you're not short-sided or having to chip over a bunker to a tucked, pin, etc.  So when going for the green, I'll often consider which side I want my miss to be (obviously not always possessing the ability to miss to that side on command).

Even thinking about things like this is helping me learn about course management.  I think my decision on whether to break out the 3-wood or not would also depend a lot on trees.  I don't mind chipping 30 yards out of the rough but I do mind possibly being behind a tree.

My scores have dropped steadily since I started using b) more often. My basic rule of thumb is if I have very little chance of hitting (or holding) the green I'll go for the lay up. My reasoning is there is generally a lot more trouble around the green then there is 50+ yards out, I'm not too concerned with the bunkers as I generally play fairly well out of bunkers but there's usually forest encroaching around the green complex on the courses I play and those kinds of areas can really be penal - lost ball, horrible lies, big rocks and stumps, trees blocking your line...

If I think I have a decent chance at hitting and staying on the green and the likely misses aren't too brutal I'll go for it but if it's a hit'n'hope type scenario I'll start thinking about where I want to attack the green from on my next shot instead of trying to force it with a low percentage shot.

Obviously the risk-reward threshold shifts quite a bit the lower the handicap so my strategy may or may not be good for your scores but it has certainly helped me keep the snowmen and worse off the card.

Last weekend I shot my all time best score (86) and toward the end of my round I started to think about how I could play more conservative shots because I didn't want to mess up the score I had going.  I remember on the 18th there was a huge water hazard both in front and out to the right of the green and I was about 170 yards out hitting my 3rd shot already.  I knew I could reach the green with a hard 7 iron or a 6 iron but I decided to hit my sand wedge 110 yards or so and chipped up.  This is an even more extreme example than option 2 above because I was settling for a bogey but I just wanted to avoid any blow up holes at that point and I wasn't in great position because of my tee shot.

[Brakkus]

I think I have read the majority of this post one of the best on here actually set up by excellent analysis by Erik again. This is a general question for most longish par 4's and par 5's. If there isn't a sizeable hazard within 100 yards of the green and you have line of sight to the green is a mid handicap player better to get close to the green with his second shot or is there a lay up threshold that would be high percentage? I can only really remember missing on the very odd occasion inside 70 yards. About the only time I do lay up to 100 yards is if I have cocked up my tee shot and looking to minimize a big number.