Should Divots Be Considered Ground Under Repair?

[14ledo81]

@Golfingdad and @Abu3baid , when who is in doubt? If my ball is in the divot, I am really in doubt. Yours, not so much.

[iacas]

So, the discussion is still about divots I see.. How come I'm the only one that is told that his is basically off topic in this thread? Hmmm. Ohhhhh admin!!!

Not true.

@Golfingdad and @Abu3baid, when who is in doubt?

If my ball is in the divot, I am really in doubt. Yours, not so much.

Bingo.

Guys, again:

[boogielicious]

Guys, again:

No.

[Abu3baid]

@Golfingdad and @Abu3baid, when who is in doubt?

If my ball is in the divot, I am really in doubt. Yours, not so much.

When the person who hit the ball is in doubt that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

@Golfingdad and @Abu3baid, when who is in doubt?

If my ball is in the divot, I am really in doubt. Yours, not so much.

Bingo.

Guys, again:

Yes!

To be totally honest I really feel strongly that golf is meant to be played with all the lucky and unlucky breaks.  However, I am willing to argue for the other side as I do see that part of the argument!

---

Ok.. so what is the big deal that when someone hits a ball and it is in the fairway that they always have the option to just take a drop of 1 club length (backwards only and not sideways) no closer to the hole if they so choose? I mean they already hit the fairway?  What more do you want from them?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

So, the discussion is still about divots I see.. How come I'm the only one that is told that his is basically off topic in this thread? Hmmm. Ohhhhh admin!!!

Not true.

Just having fun!  come on smile once in a while!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

@Golfingdad and @Abu3baid, when who is in doubt?

If my ball is in the divot, I am really in doubt. Yours, not so much.

When the person who hit the ball is in doubt that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

@Golfingdad and @Abu3baid, when who is in doubt?

If my ball is in the divot, I am really in doubt. Yours, not so much.

Bingo.

Guys, again:

Yes!

To be totally honest I really feel strongly that golf is meant to be played with all the lucky and unlucky breaks.  However, I am willing to argue for the other side as I do see that part of the argument!

Ok.. so what is the big deal that when someone hits a ball and it is in the fairway that they always have the option to just take a drop of 1 club length (backwards only and not sideways) no closer to the hole if they so choose? I mean they already hit the fairway?  What more do you want from them?

Show me where in the rules of golf the term "fairway" is defined.  The course consists of 4 defined areas.  The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played, hazards (including water hazards and bunkers ), and through the green which is all of the course not included in the first three designated areas.  There is no "fairway", so the fact that your ball lies in it is irrelevant as far as the rules are concerned.

Note:  For whatever reason, the ruling bodies at some point chose to confuse the issue by adding the words "closely mowed area" referred to as "fairway height" in one place, and only one place, to Rule 25-2 (Embedded Ball), but I can only think that it was done as compromise when the vote was split on how to apply the rule.  It's really the only place I can find where they used a term like that which is not defined.  There is never any definition of "fairway" or "fairway height", so all they do with that is add unnecessary confusion to the rules.  There is no reason I can think of that the Embedded Ball rule shouldn't apply to "through the green".  This is the only place in the rules where fairway is treated as being any different from rough.

[Abu3baid]

[QUOTE name="Abu3baid" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/414#post_1019882"]   [QUOTE name="iacas" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/400_20#post_1019871"]   [QUOTE name="Abu3baid" url="/t/9549/what-do-you-consider-the-most-stupid-rule-in-golf/342#post_1019597"] So, the discussion is still about divots I see.. How come I'm the only one that is told that his is basically off topic in this thread? Hmmm. Ohhhhh admin!!![/QUOTE] Not true. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE name="14ledo81" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/400_20#post_1019612"] [@=/u/36847/Golfingdad]@Golfingdad[/@] and [@=/u/48569/Abu3baid]@Abu3baid[/@], when who is in doubt? If my ball is in the divot, I am really in doubt. Yours, not so much.[/QUOTE] When the person who hit the ball is in doubt that is. [QUOTE] [QUOTE name="14ledo81" url="/t/9549/what-do-you-consider-the-most-stupid-rule-in-golf/360#post_1019612"] [@=/u/36847/Golfingdad]@Golfingdad[/@] and [@=/u/48569/Abu3baid]@Abu3baid[/@], when who is in doubt? If my ball is in the divot, I am really in doubt. Yours, not so much.[/QUOTE] Bingo. Guys, again:  [CONTENTEMBED=/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair layout=inline]​[/CONTENTEMBED]  [/QUOTE] Yes!  :dance: To be totally honest I really feel strongly that golf is meant to be played with all the lucky and unlucky breaks.  However, I am willing to argue for the other side as I do see that part of the argument! [rule] Ok.. so what is the big deal that when someone hits a ball and it is in the fairway that they always have the option to just take a drop of 1 club length (backwards only and not sideways) no closer to the hole if they so choose? I mean they already hit the fairway?  What more do you want from them? [/QUOTE] Show me where in the rules of golf the term "fairway" is defined.  The course consists of 4 defined areas.  The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played, hazards (including water hazards and bunkers ), and through the green which is all of the course not included in the first three designated areas.  There is no "fairway", so the fact that your ball lies in it is irrelevant as far as the rules are concerned.   Note:  For whatever reason, the ruling bodies at some point chose to confuse the issue by adding the words "closely mowed area" referred to as "fairway height" in one place, and only one place, to Rule 25-2 (Embedded Ball), but I can only think that it was done as compromise when the vote was split on how to apply the rule.  It's really the only place I can find where they used a term like that which is not defined.  There is never any definition of "fairway" or "fairway height", so all they do with that is add unnecessary confusion to the rules.  There is no reason I can think of that the Embedded Ball rule shouldn't apply to "through the green".  This is the only place in the rules where fairway is treated as being any different from rough.

I don't really need to show you where in the rules it is defined.. The fairway is well known to everyone. It is used when they apply the LCP don't they? They deferentiate it when thy calculate fairway hits don't they? I think this is a very small issue that can be dealt with later and has no bearing on the conversation.. Granted everything I am saying doesn't apply to outside this fairway as play as it lay applies there! In the mean time my comment still stands :)

[Gunther]

1) When is a divot (hole) a divot (hole)? (Like @iacas said before "what if it is only partially stripped?) 2) When has the divot (hole) healed enough to no longer be called a divot (hole)? The answer to both of these questions is way to subjective to be a part of a unified rules system.

Absolutely incorrect. Same could be said of pitch marks on the green. If you're not sure whether it's a pitch mark, ask your partner. If both aren't sure, ask an official. Doesn't matter how long it's been healed. Same should be true of divots. This is the weakest of the "let's hit from divots" arguments. The strongest is around how to define fairway since rules use the term through the green. I think preferred lie terminology could be employed but I also recognize that is a stretch.

[Abu3baid]

[quote name="14ledo81" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/390#post_1019521"]1) When is a divot (hole) a divot (hole)? (Like @iacas said before "what if it is only partially stripped?) 2) When has the divot (hole) healed enough to no longer be called a divot (hole)? The answer to both of these questions is way to subjective to be a part of a unified rules system.

Absolutely incorrect. Same could be said of pitch marks on the green. If you're not sure whether it's a pitch mark, ask your partner. If both aren't sure, ask an official. Doesn't matter how long it's been healed. Same should be true of divots. This is the weakest of the "let's hit from divots" arguments. The strongest is around how to define fairway since rules use the term through the green. I think preferred lie terminology could be employed but I also recognize that is a stretch.[/quote] Fairway is the easiest thing to define, if that is the best counter argument available then rule should change asap! :)

[iacas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Show me where in the rules of golf the term "fairway" is defined.  The course consists of 4 defined areas.  The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played, hazards (including water hazards and bunkers ), and through the green which is all of the course not included in the first three designated areas.  There is no "fairway", so the fact that your ball lies in it is irrelevant as far as the rules are concerned.

Technically there's also the green of a hole not being played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

I don't really need to show you where in the rules it is defined.. The fairway is well known to everyone.

That misses the point - there's no definition of "fairway" in the Rules of Golf. As such, you cannot base rules on that.

The teeing ground is defined. So are putting greens. Hazards are defined, as is "through the green."

There are no definitions for "rough" or "fescue" or "fairway" or "fringe" in the Rules of Golf.

P.S. The LCP local rule is recommended to be as follows:

Quote:

a. Lifting an Embedded Ball, Cleaning

Temporary conditions that might interfere with proper playing of the game, including mud and extreme wetness, warranting relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green or permitting lifting, cleaning and replacing a ball anywhere through the green or on a closely mown area through the green .

[Abu3baid]

[QUOTE name="Fourputt" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/414#post_1019906"]   Show me where in the rules of golf the term "fairway" is defined.  The course consists of 4 defined areas.  The teeing ground and putting green of the hole being played, hazards (including water hazards and bunkers ), and through the green which is all of the course not included in the first three designated areas.  There is no "fairway", so the fact that your ball lies in it is irrelevant as far as the rules are concerned.   [/QUOTE] Technically there's also the green of a hole not being played. :-) [QUOTE name="Abu3baid" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/414#post_1019912"] I don't really need to show you where in the rules it is defined.. The fairway is well known to everyone.[/QUOTE] That misses the point - there's no definition of "fairway" in the Rules of Golf. As such, you cannot base rules on that. The teeing ground is defined. So are putting greens. Hazards are defined, as is "through the green." There are no definitions for "rough" or "fescue" or "fairway" or "fringe" in the Rules of Golf. P.S. The LCP local rule is recommended to be as follows:

[QUOTE]

a. Lifting an Embedded Ball, Cleaning

Temporary conditions that might interfere with proper playing of the game, including mud and extreme wetness, warranting relief for an embedded ball anywhere through the green or permitting lifting, cleaning and replacing a ball anywhere through the green or on a closely mown area through the green .

[/QUOTE]

You would know better than my self so I will ask... When LCP is in place do they apply it in the rough as well? In either case I would suggest the following so that I am able to truly change the divot rule that a new definition is introduced in the rules of golf as fairway.. The same criteria they use to define it when they measure the Fairway hits.. This shouldn't be too hard IMO! Also, on another note, this relief is only when you are on your own fairway and not on an adjacent one..

[iacas]

You would know better than my self so I will ask... When LCP is in place do they apply it in the rough as well?

It's right there in the suggested local rule, dude.

In either case I would suggest the following so that I am able to truly change the divot rule that a new definition is introduced in the rules of golf as fairway.. The same criteria they use to define it when they measure the Fairway hits.. This shouldn't be too hard IMO!

The Rules of Golf do not care about Fairways Hit. They do not care about any statistics.

Also, on another note, this relief is only when you are on your own fairway and not on an adjacent one..

The suggested local rule does not say that.

[Abu3baid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

You would know better than my self so I will ask... When LCP is in place do they apply it in the rough as well?

It's right there in the suggested local rule, dude.

I read the rule and that is why I am asking.. I was watching a tournament I don't remember how long ago where the announcer said that the player was really trying to concentrate on getting it in the fairway so that he can lift clean and place.. The opposite to me is that if he doesn't get it in the fairway then he can't.. but, anyway that is neither here nor there as it doesn't effect what I mentioned in my original suggestion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

In either case I would suggest the following so that I am able to truly change the divot rule that a new definition is introduced in the rules of golf as fairway.. The same criteria they use to define it when they measure the Fairway hits.. This shouldn't be too hard IMO!

The Rules of Golf do not care about Fairways Hit. They do not care about any statistics.

I understand.. All I am saying is that a new rule needs to be introduced to "define" fairway.. I am not asking if the rules care about fairways hit or statistics.  I am simply making a suggestion that they should define the Fairway and if anyone doesn't know how to define it I am giving a hint that they can use the same definition that is used when someone calculates the Fairway% (They can contact Golf.com or something and ask them how they define Fairway if they still have questions)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

Also, on another note, this relief is only when you are on your own fairway and not on an adjacent one..

The suggested local rule does not say that.

ummmm.... I wasn't talking about LCP.. I'm talking about the divot rule change.. The relief would only be applicable to the Fairway you are playing and not the rough, other fairways or other greens.. Only the Fairway between you and your green!

So, let me summarize where I am and I really don't want to discuss what is a Fairway anymore as I think we just all go around in circles playing semantics.. we all know what a Fairway is!!

1.  When someone hits it on the "Fairway" and it is in a divot then they should get relief just like they do when the ball is embedded into the fairway and there is little water at the bottom

2.  If you have doubt that this is a divot or was a divot then it is a divot

3.  The guy/girl hit it on the "Fairway" what more is expected from them?

[David in FL]

I read the rule and that is why I am asking.. I was watching a tournament I don't remember how long ago where the announcer said that the player was really trying to concentrate on getting it in the fairway so that he can lift clean and place.. The opposite to me is that if he doesn't get it in the fairway then he can't.. but, anyway that is neither here nor there as it doesn't effect what I mentioned in my original suggestion

I understand.. All I am saying is that a new rule needs to be introduced to "define" fairway.. I am not asking if the rules care about fairways hit or statistics.  I am simply making a suggestion that they should define the Fairway and if anyone doesn't know how to define it I am giving a hint that they can use the same definition that is used when someone calculates the Fairway% (They can contact Golf.com or something and ask them how they define Fairway if they still have questions)

ummmm.... I wasn't talking about LCP.. I'm talking about the divot rule change.. The relief would only be applicable to the Fairway you are playing and not the rough, other fairways or other greens.. Only the Fairway between you and your green!

So, let me summarize where I am and I really don't want to discuss what is a Fairway anymore as I think we just all go around in circles playing semantics.. we all know what a Fairway is!!

1.  When someone hits it on the "Fairway" and it is in a divot then they should get relief just like they do when the ball is embedded into the fairway and there is little water at the bottom

2.  If you have doubt that this is a divot or was a divot then it is a divot

3.  The guy/girl hit it on the "Fairway" what more is expected from them?

And that boys and girls, is the end of golf as we know it.

No more "play the course as you find it, and the ball as it lies".  Now, if I don't like my lie, I can change it, just because......

No thank you.

[iacas]

I absolutely disagree with the need to define "fairway," particularly if the main purpose for doing so is to allow lift clean and place when your ball is in a divot. Divots are bad luck. Nothing more.

[dkolo]

The easy solution is to just hit your drives onto the green and then you can clean your golf ball to your heart's content.

[Abu3baid]

And that boys and girls, is the end of golf as we know it. No more "play the course as you find it, and the ball as it lies".  Now, if I don't like my lie, I can change it, just because...... No thank you.

No that isn't true... You don't play the course as you find it if the ball is in a puddle of water do you? We are exploring an issue that has obviously been raised before and will be raised again, someone thought about and decided at some point that hey we should introduce LCP to the game, accordingly I'm assuming that you would not take advantage of that exception and you would play it as it lay because playing that way is more pure? We have two opposite extremes here and I think the answer lay in the middle.. The person who made the rules was at the other end where he said nope you play as is! All I am saying is if it looks like a divot then it is.. Just like if it is embedded and you claim that there is water underneath and you take relief.. If you are not sure you call over your partner or official as was mentioned before.. [quote name="iacas" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/420_10#post_1019958"]I absolutely disagree with the need to define "fairway," particularly if the main purpose for doing so is to allow lift clean and place when your ball is in a divot. Divots are bad luck. Nothing more.[/quote] Well, this doesn't have to be the only reason to define a fairway, but maybe we can open a thread of should golf rules define fairways..

[chasm]

3.  The guy/girl hit it on the "Fairway" what more is expected from them?

Please, tell me you're not serious. What is expected of them is that they should play the ball as it lies. That's at the heart of the game. Hitting the ball in the fairway gives one a better chance of a good lie, but it's not a guarantee. The game requires that you learn to make shots that the course conditions require, not that you change the course conditions so that you only have to make the shots you can play. I suggest you don't try playing a links course in Scotland. Hit the ball in the middle of the fairway and you're quite likely to have it run off into a bunker. That's sort of the point.

[dkolo]

Please, tell me you're not serious.

What is expected of them is that they should play the ball as it lies. That's at the heart of the game. Hitting the ball in the fairway gives one a better chance of a good lie, but it's not a guarantee. The game requires that you learn to make shots that the course conditions require, not that you change the course conditions so that you only have to make the shots you can play.

I suggest you don't try playing a links course in Scotland. Hit the ball in the middle of the fairway and you're quite likely to have it run off into a bunker. That's sort of the point.

I hit my drive onto the fairway, and it was on a side hill and downhill lie. I want my money back. Golf course is broken.