Stop Aiming at the Flag!!! #DeadCenter

[Shindig]

Can't even remember the last time I skulled a putt over the green and into a trap/pond...

I think I've seen someone putt off a green into the water exactly once. And, while he's a better golfer than I am, it doesn't affect my view of the strategy at all.

[MS256]

So Tristan, you and I agree. The only difference is I've got a better short game, I hit my wedge further and I don't go at 270yd par 3s over crap with trouble short and left!!!!!!

Wow that's a nasty par three!!!

I don't play a lot of different courses but I don't remember running across one of those.

[Pave]

As part of my job I see a lot of courses.

Here's another one http://www.greenskeeper.org/hawaii/Big_Island/mauna_kea_golf_course_hawaii/scorecard.cfm

Check out the 3rd from the Championship plates AND it's all carry over the Pacific Ocean.

[iacas]

Let's stick to the topic. :offtopic: Thanks.

[Pave]

Let's stick to the topic.

Thanks.

Please explain how discussing golf holes is not relative to aiming theories?

[Golfingdad]

Please explain how discussing golf holes is not relative to aiming theories?

You're not "discussing" anything ... You're just saying "look at this hole." How does a picture of a hole, or in this case just a scorecard, tie into whether or not we should be aiming at the flag?

[Pave]

You're not "discussing" anything ... You're just saying "look at this hole." How does a picture of a hole, or in this case just a scorecard, tie into whether or not we should be aiming at the flag?

Rubbish. Of course a Par 3 ties in with where you should be aiming. I'm sure if you read my earlier post you would understand that I agree that what the original OP wrote has some merit, but it was a bit general in nature. I also understand that it was stated in reference to an upcoming book and that it also has to do with shot dispersion. What the OP is talking about are the decisions you consciously make or course management.

Maybe you're confused with the relevance, maybe the confusion is that you're assuming that the OP was ONLY referring to actual 60,80,100 distances mentioned. But he wasn't, it clearly states "more than", "further than" and "further". What you need to understand is that the greater the distance, the greater the shot dispersion and that often you will be faced with a decision whereby you may be better off not even trying to hit the green at all.

Now case in point....You're on the 3rd Par 3 at Mauna Kea, 272yds, 260yds carry over the Pacific Ocean.........are you thinking about aiming at the centre of the green? I think not.

[Pave]

Pt 2

The smart play is to lay up short right and do your best from there, easy 4, chance of a 3.

You need to understand that I'm not trying to shut down the discussion, quite the contrary, I'm try to expand the discussion so others may learn.

[saevel25]

Rubbish. Of course a Par 3 ties in with where you should be aiming. I'm sure if you read my earlier post you would understand that I agree that what the original OP wrote has some merit, but it was a bit general in nature. I also understand that it was stated in reference to an upcoming book and that it also has to do with shot dispersion. What the OP is talking about are the decisions you consciously make or course management.

Maybe you're confused with the relevance, maybe the confusion is that you're assuming that the OP was ONLY referring to actual 60,80,100 distances mentioned. But he wasn't, it clearly states "more than", "further than" and "further". What you need to understand is that the greater the distance, the greater the shot dispersion and that often you will be faced with a decision whereby you may be better off not even trying to hit the green at all.

Now case in point....You're on the 3rd Par 3 at Mauna Kea, 272yds, 260yds carry over the Pacific Ocean.........are you thinking about aiming at the centre of the green? I think not.

Of course it was general in nature, its about what happens MAJORITY of the time. Yet there are situations in which golfers might come across that force them to adjust a bit. Which has been discussed already in previous posts.

As for that par 3, my goal would be to get the ball on the green.

[Golfingdad]

Rubbish. Of course a Par 3 ties in with where you should be aiming.

It could, but the post didn't have any explanation tying it to the topic of aiming.  You just said "look at this hole," and for that matter, you didn't even provide a picture.  Anyways, moving on ...

Now case in point....You're on the 3rd Par 3 at Mauna Kea, 272yds, 260yds carry over the Pacific Ocean.........are you thinking about aiming at the centre of the green? I think not.

You are correct, I'm not aiming at the center of that green because my shot dispersion is big enough from 205 yards that it's quite a bit bigger than the green.  I'd prefer to just get out of there with the least amount of damage possible.

The smart play is to lay up short right and do your best from there, easy 4, chance of a 3.

I've never played there (only driven by the hole once) but I'm going to disagree here.  I want to put the center of my realistic shot dispersion in the best position to be close to or on the green AND out of the ocean.  Short and right brings the ocean more into play than is necessary, and you are giving yourself almost no chance at hitting the green (you might be able to sneak onto the front edge if you hit a big pull).  IMO, the smart play here is to go for the right edge of the green, middle depth.  Basically, the tip of the shadow of the one guy that's standing on the edge of the green in this picture:

That minimizes my chances of ending up in the water because even if I pull it, with that club, unless it's badly mishit, I have most of that back left bunker to help me out (Since pulls tend to carry a little further)  If I miss a little right, I might be in a bunker, or in the rough, but the water is out of the picture.  I slight pull and I'm sitting pretty.

That's how I would amend the OP to play an outlier hole like this.

[iacas]

That's how I would amend the OP to play an outlier hole like this.

And that's how we'd tell you to play that hole… regardless of where the hole is cut.

Unless of course you don't consistently carry a club 220 yards or whatever. But then you're playing the wrong tees, so… from the proper tees, it's probably still the same play.

[saevel25]

I've never played there (only driven by the hole once) but I'm going to disagree here.  I want to put the center of my realistic shot dispersion in the best position to be close to or on the green AND out of the ocean.  Short and right brings the ocean more into play than is necessary, and you are giving yourself almost no chance at hitting the green (you might be able to sneak onto the front edge if you hit a big pull).  IMO, the smart play here is to go for the right edge of the green, middle depth.  Basically, the tip of the shadow of the one guy that's standing on the edge of the green in this picture:

I would agree with, though my line would probably be the right edge of that back right bunker. Just because that green juts out a bit on the right hand side. Basically very similar shots, I just like a bit more of the green for me

[boogielicious]

And that's how we'd tell you to play that hole… regardless of where the hole is cut.

Unless of course you don't consistently carry a club 220 yards or whatever. But then you're playing the wrong tees, so… from the proper tees, it's probably still the same play.

The 16th at Port Royal in Bermuda is almost exactly like this and 180 from the tees I play (The Pros are further back).  I played it just like @Golfingdad .  I actually landed on the green and made par.

On these outlier holes, we are still not flag hunting.  The center of the green may be too close to a hazard, but we are essentially aiming for the center of the least trouble and giving ourselves a chance for par on a difficult hole.

[iacas]

I can't give away a lot of the book, but I may use this hole as an example of ideal strategy.

[Golfingdad]

but we are essentially aiming for the center of the least trouble

Right.  I think people who want to disagree with the OP are reading "dead center of the green" as 100% literal and with no exceptions or variations.

Those of us that agree recognize the reasoning behind it, which is basically what you said, and understand that there are exceptions to the rule.

But 95% of time, for most people on most courses, the "center of the least trouble" IS the center of the green.

[mvmac]

Now case in point....You're on the 3rd Par 3 at Mauna Kea, 272yds, 260yds carry over the Pacific Ocean.........are you thinking about aiming at the centre of the green? I think not.

You're not understanding the point of this thread. For this hole, like @Golfingdad said, aim right center/edge of the green (not "center of the green"). The title of the thread is "stop aiming at the flag", not aim at the center of the green every time. It's about utilizing a strategy that allows you to hit the most greens possible. So regardless of whether the pin is left, right or center, that's where you aim, a higher handicap player might even aim off the green, slightly to the right.

[Pave]

Wrong Tees. The markers you're looking at are 200yds. The 272y tees aren't even in your picture.

Mike, I understand the point of the thread perfectly well. @boogielicious is correct in saying, "aiming at the centre of least trouble" as much better description than what Dave said initially.

There's no point arguing about it, we are all in general agreement.

Now Mike, I wasn't aware that was the specific intention that Dave's post was about, "utilizing a strategy that allows you to hit the most greens possible". This is interesting, as I would think it's more about shooting the lowest score possible, which is what he did say. GIRs are a stat, they don't tell the whole story.

[LuciusWooding]

Now Mike, I wasn't aware that was the specific intention that Dave's post was about, "utilizing a strategy that allows you to hit the most greens possible". This is interesting, as I would think it's more about shooting the lowest score possible, which is what he did say. GIRs are a stat, they don't tell the whole story.

I think the entire point of the thread is that hitting the most greens possible will result in better scores than going for proximity. GIR is probably the best stat we have in terms of correlation to score that can be calculated easily. Hitting fairways or having few putts, on the other hand, don't correlate as well because the biggest place to gain or lose strokes is the approach to the green.

Obviously there are some holes where the degree of difficulty is too high to reasonably hit the green; that's the golfer's problem. If you can't hit the target then you shouldn't expect to make par. People who can hit the green will be rewarded, though it may not be the high percentage play. At some point though, I'd rather go for the green and take the drop out of water if need be, and try to get up and down. When you have to bend over backwards to keep your ball dry it's not a very fair hole IMO. An up and down for a 4 is not so much worse than I'd expect to make by laying up.