Is Golf a Sport or a Game?

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by trackster

What does that even matter.  Your handicap was 3 worse than his at one blue moon?  Considering he started with limited golf experience, in his mid 30's, I think being a 6 right now is pretty good.  What did you expect him to be after 3000 hours, a +2?

Maybe, just maybe he's developed the athletic requirements to become a 6 after 3000 hours of training?  Now ask yourself this, what sport doesn't require athletism?

[trackster]

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

Maybe, just maybe he's developed the athletic requirements to become a 6 after 3000 hours of training?  Now ask yourself this, what sport doesn't require athletism?

I like your first sentence.  Despite starting with no athletic ability, he has probably developed athletic ability by now, I never thought of it that way.

To answer your question, um Darts, Pool, Bowling.  While all 3 aren't easy, they don't require a huge deal of athleticism.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

That still misses the point. For starters, he'd have to conduct a similar experiment with every sport out there. If they were all "disproved" then there you go. At the end of the day, it's an experiment with one person, and you're apparently willing to base your entire opinion on its results.

Besides, the smart money is already on "he will not become a Tour Pro." Heck, some aren't even sure he'll become a scratch golfer, and that's MILES away from being a tour pro.

He's 3000 hours in and he has only accomplished the easy part.  Heck, I was once down to a 9 handicap and I haven't practiced 3000 hours my entire life.  He needs to get the 6 handicap to a +6, then maybe he has a chance to squeeze into the Tour.  However, that requires a level of perfection exponentially higher than where he is at currently.

Sorry, what? The Dan Plan guy claims to be a 6 now? What course is that on? In the videos I watched, he seemed to be a short knocker who couldn't putt or chip very well. He must have made a breakthrough.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

Maybe, just maybe he's developed the athletic requirements to become a 6 after 3000 hours of training?  Now ask yourself this, what sport doesn't require athletism?

Originally Posted by trackster

I like your first sentence.  Despite starting with no athletic ability, he has probably developed athletic ability by now, I never thought of it that way.

To answer your question, um Darts, Pool, Bowling.  While all 3 aren't easy, they don't require a huge deal of athleticism.

Everybody has some athletic ability, by definition.

[Andrew Gibson]

I think there is a big difference between someone that is athletic and participates in games, and someone that is competitive and competes at a pro or semi pro level.

I consider my self to be fairly athletic, I go to the gym and lift weights (actual iron, not machines), I cycle, I played baseball as a kid, I play Racquetball, I enjoy shooting, swimming...

I am not competitive in any of these. I went out for the golf team in college, was completely unprepared, mostly because i had no money to practice for the year leading up, but when the pressure was on I choked. I don't handle the pressure of the moment well. I think that is what makes a great athlete, when the pressure is on they can get the job done.

Even if this guy makes it to a +6 and gets a shot at playing on the tour, that does not mean he will be able to handle the pressure of a tournament. also just because someone does not consider themselves to be athletic, does not mean that they do not have natural talent, it means that their interests and upbringing didn't emphasize it and develop it.

I guess I am saying that an athlete has to show mental and physical abilities in order to be an athlete...  Anyone who can walk 36 holes in a day, on a tournament level course, and have the mental ability to make a quality golf swing, and then make the puts under tournament pressure, is definitely an athlete. Also any activity that provides that amount of mental and physical stress is definitely a sport...

Unfortunately because I can jump in a cart and go shoot a 79 while drinking a 6 pack on my bachelor party, on an easy course, does not mean I am an athlete... I could go and join a softball team and play the sport of softball, but that does not require me to be good at it, nor does it make me an athlete, but I am still playing a sport. I think its the same with golf...

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Sorry, what? The Dan Plan guy claims to be a 6 now? What course is that on? In the videos I watched, he seemed to be a short knocker who couldn't putt or chip very well. He must have made a breakthrough.

The recent article I read said he hasn't broken 80 yet.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by trackster

I like your first sentence.  Despite starting with no athletic ability, he has probably developed athletic ability by now, I never thought of it that way.

To answer your question, um Darts, Pool, Bowling.  While all 3 aren't easy, they don't require a huge deal of athleticism.

I'm a 217 average in bowling, have a perfect game, have bowled dozens and dozens of 700+ triples and have a couple 800+ triples.

I'm pretty athletic (played Div 1 baseball) and played for the Jy Blue Jays.  I still work out regularly.  I hook the crap out of my bowling ball and call tell you right now, it's my athletism that has enabled me to take top average in my bowling league the last 6 years.  Not a "huge amount" of athletism, maybe?  But if you saw my bowling video, you'll see that I drive ALL OF my legs, core, chest and wrist into that ball before it hits the lane and swings way right before it snap hooks into the pocket.  Not many in the league can do that and the ones that can't don't have the athletic ability to do so.  In some ways, the weaker bowlers in the league say it's unfair because I can put so much into the power into the ball when they can't.  That harmony of putting and mastering athletic ability into a skill is what makes a game a sport.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by trackster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

Maybe, just maybe he's developed the athletic requirements to become a 6 after 3000 hours of training?  Now ask yourself this, what sport doesn't require athletism?

I like your first sentence.  Despite starting with no athletic ability, he has probably developed athletic ability by now, I never thought of it that way.

To answer your question, um Darts, Pool, Bowling.  While all 3 aren't easy, they don't require a huge deal of athleticism.

Nothing takes athleticism to do poorly.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

The recent article I read said he hasn't broken 80 yet.

On the internet, that qualifies as a 6 handicap.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by trackster

Dan's results will be a good bench mark to provide evidence for or against golf.

I completely disagree. It's one guy.

Originally Posted by trackster

To answer your question, um Darts, Pool, Bowling.  While all 3 aren't easy, they don't require a huge deal of athleticism.

So let me get this straight: darts is clearly a sport to you, but golf is not unless Dan fails to get on the PGA Tour?

Okay....

[Golfingdad]

So let me get this straight: darts is clearly a sport to you, but golf is not unless Dan fails to get on the PGA Tour? Okay....

I love darts! I like watching it on tv just to here the announcer excitedly yell "one hundred and eighty!!!" OT I know, just sayin' ... (PS I think darts is a game, and pool. But bowling is a sport)

[x129]

He shot 78 a little while back on a 71.9/137 6500 yard course which is pretty legit in my book. He also claims to be driving it 275 with range balls which while not a long drive puts you well into the above average category. He is pretty much where I expected him to be. He also has  hit the point where improvement gets really hard for most people.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Sorry, what? The Dan Plan guy claims to be a 6 now? What course is that on? In the videos I watched, he seemed to be a short knocker who couldn't putt or chip very well. He must have made a breakthrough.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by x129

He shot 78 a little while back on a 71.9/137 6500 yard course which is pretty legit in my book. He also claims to be driving it 275 with range balls which while not a long drive puts you well into the above average category. He is pretty much where I expected him to be. He also has  hit the point where improvement gets really hard for most people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Sorry, what? The Dan Plan guy claims to be a 6 now? What course is that on? In the videos I watched, he seemed to be a short knocker who couldn't putt or chip very well. He must have made a breakthrough.

He broke 80 once and claims to be hitting 275 AT THE DRIVING RANGE !!

He sounds like a 14.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

He sounds like a 14.

His site lists his current handicap as 6.1. Stats are here.

Still, Dan's progress has little to do with this topic.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by iacas

I completely disagree. It's one guy.

So let me get this straight: darts is clearly a sport to you, but golf is not unless Dan fails to get on the PGA Tour?

Okay....

If you will read my first post on this topic you will see that I said while golf is a sport, I don't think it takes that much physical fitness.  Quite a different interpretation.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

He sounds like a 14.

His site lists his current handicap as 6.1. Stats are here.

Still, Dan's progress has little to do with this topic.

I'll take your word for it since his website and your attachment are actually blocked for me.

And of course Dan the Plan has nothing to do with this topic. Whether he's a future professional athlete or sportsman or game player or poser is not proof of anything. I've heard and said enough about Dan.

[Christian Costa]

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't consider NASCAR drivers athletes. For that matter, I don't really consider jockeys athletes either.

Why?

For me, it's a simple matter of answering this question: what's doing the actual work? In horse racing it's the horse (and THEY are most definitely athletes). In NASCAR, it's the car.

If a NASCAR driver is an athlete, what about the members of his pit crew? Are they athletes? They have to be fit, strong, and fast too. I don't think they are - and I can't get away from the fact that there's a big freakin' engine pulling the driver around.

In every other athletic endeavor tied to a sport that I can think of (even something like windsurfing... sailing maybe not...), the athlete does most of the work, not another animal or a machine.

You've got to be pretty strong, mentally and physically, to be a fireman, too, but that doesn't make firemen athletes. They're athletic, but I wouldn't call them athletes.

Golfers have a tool (the club), but they do all the "work." Baseball players have mitts, but they still run, catch, and throw. And on down the line.

I'm not denying that driving a race car is hard work or exhausting. But for me, it doesn't quite qualify as "athletic" work.

That's me, and frankly, my own opinions differ from the very straight-laced definition of "athlete," which would include a NASCAR driver, I think.

perfect

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't consider NASCAR drivers athletes. For that matter, I don't really consider jockeys athletes either.

Why?

For me, it's a simple matter of answering this question: what's doing the actual work? In horse racing it's the horse (and THEY are most definitely athletes). In NASCAR, it's the car.

If a NASCAR driver is an athlete, what about the members of his pit crew? Are they athletes? They have to be fit, strong, and fast too. I don't think they are - and I can't get away from the fact that there's a big freakin' engine pulling the driver around.

In every other athletic endeavor tied to a sport that I can think of (even something like windsurfing... sailing maybe not...), the athlete does most of the work, not another animal or a machine.

You've got to be pretty strong, mentally and physically, to be a fireman, too, but that doesn't make firemen athletes. They're athletic, but I wouldn't call them athletes.

Golfers have a tool (the club), but they do all the "work." Baseball players have mitts, but they still run, catch, and throw. And on down the line.

I'm not denying that driving a race car is hard work or exhausting. But for me, it doesn't quite qualify as "athletic" work.

That's me, and frankly, my own opinions differ from the very straight-laced definition of "athlete," which would include a NASCAR driver, I think.

I don't know about jockeys, but try wrestling a 3500 pound car at 180mph for 500 miles in summer heat some time.  Absolutely grueling.  The mental and physical endurance required to do that in a field of 40 other cars all trying to run you down is at least equivalent to anything a professional Tour player faces, and is physically more demanding. They may not be conditioned like an Olympic athlete, but they have to be fit.  I can't think of the last time I saw an overweight Nascar driver.