Parents of Grade-Schoolers - Thoughts on Common Core

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

 

Not sure I agree with that. 

Not sure I agree with this as well. Environments can have a huge impact on development. I am not a big supporter of affirmative action, but there are cases were very bright minority students just do not blossom because of the environment they live in. 
 

I don't entirely agree with the "private school" statement either and noted that there is bias to that statement, but the facts speak for themselves as far as the smart 2% doing well anywhere. Of course, you might not like what they are doing if they were bred in the wrong environment, but the fact is they are generally more successful than the other 98%. . .

[Shindig]

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Not sure I agree with that. 

I'm not sure I agree with it as stated, but I suspect something similar to it is true.  I went to what was (allegedly) one of the best public school districts in the greater Los Angeles area for high school and I can't imagine how bad the worst of the public schools were, and I can't imagine a private school that wasn't literally a warehouse of babysitting being significantly worse.  Some of my biggest memories from high school were "I can't believe what an idiot this teacher is" moments, such as finding out that my world geography teacher didn't know that Europe isn't a country or that my AP CS teacher didn't know how semi-colons work in C++ (or where and when to use them).  

I was a public school student 1-12 + college (undergrad and grad school).  If I have kids, they're definitely going to a private school.  If I have any say in the education of my nieces and nephews, I'll push them that direction too.

I haven't really looked into Common Core (no existing kids, nieces, or nephews of my own), and I want to believe the public schools might be better at some point, but I'm not optimistic.  If the public schools are going towards CC and the private ones largely aren't, that's going to bias me against CC.

And for what it's worth, with regards to the topic that bumped this thread, every now and then, especially in a math class, a student solves a problem completely differently from how I thought they'd go about it, but is otherwise correct.  Of course they get full credit.  It's unfathomable to me that they wouldn't.   This isn't to say there aren't solutions that come up that demonstrate a sharp lack of understanding, but there's a world of difference between those and the brilliant-but-unexpected ones.

[Golfingdad]

5 hours ago, newtogolf said:

I'm old (50) when we had tests on multiplication, it was a memory test as we were required to memorize the multiplication tables up to 15x15.  We would take these tests with no scratch paper and if there was anything on the paper but our answer we'd lose points.

To this day I can do math in my head much faster than either of my kids who are both honor students taking AP math classes starting in 10th grade.  Seems something was lost when they abandoned the old school teaching methods.

The article @iacas posted is well written and provides the basis for the difference between equality and equivalence, especially how it relates to computer programming but I highly doubt that the teacher that graded the test understood this or communicated it to the student.

The situation in Erik's article was, to me, a case of a teacher misunderstanding the curriculum, not of bad curriculum itself.  I believe that the whole point of the ideas are to get kids thinking and learning creative ways to solve the problems.  Your way (and my way as well) was simply memorization, but how much does that really teach anyone?  I could say that I probably know most multiplication of single digit numbers my memory, but beyond that, I'm figuring it out in my head ... and I'm doing it in my own unique way.  (For example, I don't have 11x13 memorized, but I can do it in my head quickly by multiplying 10 and 13 and adding another 13)

And I think that is better in the long run, because if it's based on memorization then what do you do when you forget?  (Besides grab a calculator ;))

---

My son hadn't started kindergarten when I started this thread, but he's in 1st grade (public school) now and so far everything is going very well.  I have nothing but praise (so far) in regards to his school, his teacher, and their curriculum.

[CoachB25]

 

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, Shindig said:

I'm not sure I agree with it as stated, but I suspect something similar to it is true.  I went to what was (allegedly) one of the best public school districts in the greater Los Angeles area for high school and I can't imagine how bad the worst of the public schools were, and I can't imagine a private school that wasn't literally a warehouse of babysitting being significantly worse.  Some of my biggest memories from high school were "I can't believe what an idiot this teacher is" moments, such as finding out that my world geography teacher didn't know that Europe isn't a country or that my AP CS teacher didn't know how semi-colons work in C++ (or where and when to use them).  

I was a public school student 1-12 + college (undergrad and grad school).  If I have kids, they're definitely going to a private school.  If I have any say in the education of my nieces and nephews, I'll push them that direction too.

I haven't really looked into Common Core (no existing kids, nieces, or nephews of my own), and I want to believe the public schools might be better at some point, but I'm not optimistic.  If the public schools are going towards CC and the private ones largely aren't, that's going to bias me against CC.

And for what it's worth, with regards to the topic that bumped this thread, every now and then, especially in a math class, a student solves a problem completely differently from how I thought they'd go about it, but is otherwise correct.  Of course they get full credit.  It's unfathomable to me that they wouldn't.   This isn't to say there aren't solutions that come up that demonstrate a sharp lack of understanding, but there's a world of difference between those and the brilliant-but-unexpected ones.

My brother and sister, whom are both very smart, ran into the similar issues with their teachers as you did. It was strange that they would ponder for hours why they were wrong only to have confirmation in the end that they were not wrong. They were the kids who wanted 100% all the time, anywhere north of 90% was great for me!

My wife works at one of the best school districts in Los Angeles, and many of her co-workers and teacher friends think this curriculum is going to be very bad for out future.

 

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

The situation in Erik's article was, to me, a case of a teacher misunderstanding the curriculum, not of bad curriculum itself.  I believe that the whole point of the ideas are to get kids thinking and learning creative ways to solve the problems.  Your way (and my way as well) was simply memorization, but how much does that really teach anyone?  I could say that I probably know most multiplication of single digit numbers my memory, but beyond that, I'm figuring it out in my head ... and I'm doing it in my own unique way.  (For example, I don't have 11x13 memorized, but I can do it in my head quickly by multiplying 10 and 13 and adding another 13)

And I think that is better in the long run, because if it's based on memorization then what do you do when you forget?  (Besides grab a calculator ;))

---

My son hadn't started kindergarten when I started this thread, but he's in 1st grade (public school) now and so far everything is going very well.  I have nothing but praise (so far) in regards to his school, his teacher, and their curriculum.

You can also subsidize their education with extracurricular tutoring. It's worked for many of my friends' children.

 

25 minutes ago, CoachB25 said:

https://youtu.be/PprP5TCZBRI

He is very articulate and analytical for a high school student, impressive. Obviously, one of the top 2% students, and he's stating exactly the same thing as all my wife's co-workers and teachers.

[CoachB25]

I have been undergoing extensive training for common core.  I was sent to training to then train our Social Studies Department.  In doing so, the first thing I asked our training staff was where I would find the time to implement all of the writing requirements?   I was told that I would no longer teach what was once taught.  I would take one or two aspects of a unit, expand on those aspects, have students do discovery exercises on those things and then write, write and write some more on those selected things.  Obviously, the next question was where students would learn all the information that they are no longer exposed to.  My answer was that it didn't matter.  What students were to learn was how to delve into material which would,in turn, enable them to learn more about any topic should they wish to explore it on their time.  Students would become proficient in writing and thinking.  BTW, one aspect of the writing would be to have students create a paper on what would have happened if ...  So, suppose students were learning about JFK, they would write about what would have happened if he had not be assassinated.  I bet you can see where this is going.  I asked how students would be able to delve into this IF they were not exposed to what did happen after his assassination.  Again, much of that would not be taught.  My answer was very specific.  Students who want to know will research it.  For the others, it doesn't matter since they are writing and being creative.  I finished that two week training course a very frustrated person. 

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, CoachB25 said:

I have been undergoing extensive training for common core.  I was sent to training to then train our Social Studies Department.  In doing so, the first thing I asked our training staff was where I would find the time to implement all of the writing requirements?   I was told that I would no longer teach what was once taught.  I would take one or two aspects of a unit, expand on those aspects, have students do discovery exercises on those things and then write, write and write some more on those selected things.  Obviously, the next question was where students would learn all the information that they are no longer exposed to.  My answer was that it didn't matter.  What students were to learn was how to delve into material which would,in turn, enable them to learn more about any topic should they wish to explore it on their time.  Students would become proficient in writing and thinking.  BTW, one aspect of the writing would be to have students create a paper on what would have happened if ...  So, suppose students were learning about JFK, they would write about what would have happened if he had not be assassinated.  I bet you can see where this is going.  I asked how students would be able to delve into this IF they were not exposed to what did happen after his assassination.  Again, much of that would not be taught.  My answer was very specific.  Students who want to know will research it.  For the others, it doesn't matter since they are writing and being creative.  I finished that two week training course a very frustrated person. 

 

Thanks for some inside information.

If this is how they are planning on teaching, then the teachers need to be a lot better at reading and critiquing their work in a more intelligent and unbiased manner.

Those students that would succeed at this will probably be the same students that are currently at the top of the class. Students that have been doing "A" quality work in a more standardized environment will also have more skills to write about whatever subject they like as well. It doesn't change anything for them.

The issue I see is that it doesn't sound any better for those students who are not at the top at writing anyway? Even if they are interested in a subject, they still can't articulate it any better? How are they graded? By the same teachers? These teachers already have trouble with standard subjects, if you make it wide open the teachers need to be able to read about any subject and grade it fairly. Teachers are human and are naturally interested in all kinds of things like "Football" or "Assyrian food in the Amorite period" oe whatever. They will be biased towards those writing about their favorite subjects. People are biased, and that will factor into the grades. The top students will end up picking subjects their teachers enjoy reading about and learn what they need to write interesting essays accordingly. Less than top and mediocre students will not have cliff notes to reference. . .I'm not sure they will fair any better?

[newtogolf]

Our nation is already ranked poorly for geography so I guess common core will move us lower in the rankings for world history as well.  Many in education are ashamed of parts of our history so common core allows them to just remove it from their curriculum.   
 

[turtleback]

On 11/1/2015, 8:49:08, iacas said:

https://medium.com/i-math/why-5-x-3-5-5-5-was-marked-wrong-b34607a5b74c

I will admit to hating this kind of stuff.

 

I agree - what a load of nonsense.  Having taught math for 15 years I cannot imagine someone who understands math marking that wrong.  Me, I would have not even noticed it, because it is an absurd distinction, but if I did notice it as a variation on the expected answer I would have been HAPPY because the kid had an insight there.  We say we want kids to be creative and think outside the box and then mark them wrong when they do it?

Whether 5*3 is defined as 5 threes or three fives is purely a matter of convention, not necessity.  One of the great beauties of math is that so many things can be done in so many different ways.  I've red that there are something like 100 different proofs of the Pythagorean Theorem.  None of them is the "right" one, they are all right.

My own standard for dealing with answers (or methods) I did not expect was a 2-prong approach.  Is the answer correct?  If not I went no further because I never gave partial credit for wrong answers.  Do that and the next thing you know you cannot focus the Hubble telescope.  Second prong was: is the answer mathematically valid.  Sometimes there was a third prong if the answer was mathematically correct but not in the proper form (e.g., that answered 2/4 when the problem asked for the answer in lowest terms.)  Those are the only cases where I gave partial credit - half off.

The reaction to common core has been interesting in the math field.  In some states it is considerably more rigorous than the prior standards but in some it is less rigorous.  In CA, for example CC in math is much less advanced (and more age-appropriate).  CA was insisting that every 8th grader be in algebra while CC is more flexible.

My problem with the math CC was the focus on methods that are unproven, rather than the contents part of the standard.  In math CC takes a "project" approach to learning, which is just a variation on the old constructivist approach.  And there is absolutely no research that backs up the claim that this is better than the older methods. 

In fact, the truth is that there is basically no valid research in education.  Most studies have no statistical validity whatsoever.  The one huge study that was carried out over something like a 20 year period actually gave useful and statistically valid results (project followthrough).  It was subsequently poo pooed by the education establishment because it showed that the best method for low kids, high kids, and the kids in between, was direct instruction.  That didn't fit the narratives of the "experts" at the time and has been disregarded.  Except for some rogue teachers who know the difference between real research and potemkin research.

The joke in education is "How do you know when an administrator is lying?".  When they start their statement with "the research shows."  Near the end I would start to call them on it and ask them to show me the research.  Somehow they never had time to find it for me.  Or it was some little study based on 3 handpicked classes of 20, being taught by teachers who had been given extensive training - none of which would ever happen in a real classroom - that "showed" a 2% improvement.

For my own kids, all I cared about in the local schools was that they were reasonably safe.  I knew that no kid could grow up in the home my wife and I made without becoming educated because of who we were and how we lived.  If you have kids, it is YOUR responsibility to prepare them for life, IMO.  You can sub out part of the job to the schools, but YOU still have the overall responsibility.

[Golfingdad]

11 minutes ago, turtleback said:

For my own kids, all I cared about in the local schools was that they were reasonably safe.  I knew that no kid could grow up in the home my wife and I made without becoming educated because of who we were and how we lived.  If you have kids, it is YOUR responsibility to prepare them for life, IMO.  You can sub out part of the job to the schools, but YOU still have the overall responsibility.

The crux of it, right there.  My feelings as well.  Public or private school, "distinguished" or not, kids are learning because the parents at home are engaged and helping or they're not learning because the parents don't care to be involved.

[CoachB25]

I teach in a great school district and have been recognized, myself, for my efforts in the classroom.  However, the facts are that the education of a child has to be a joint effort. I am constantly emailing or calling parents.  I have found that parents, for the most part, want to be involved.  Sure, some get angry and tell me that it is my job to teach their child. Our parent teacher conferences last week were fantastic.  I see a student for 55 minutes a day in my classroom.  Therefore, I have to count on a partnership with parents to help each of my students be successful. 

[Lihu]

32 minutes ago, CoachB25 said:

I teach in a great school district and have been recognized, myself, for my efforts in the classroom.  However, the facts are that the education of a child has to be a joint effort. I am constantly emailing or calling parents.  I have found that parents, for the most part, want to be involved.  Sure, some get angry and tell me that it is my job to teach their child. Our parent teacher conferences last week were fantastic.  I see a student for 55 minutes a day in my classroom.  Therefore, I have to count on a partnership with parents to help each of my students be successful. 

Great! Too many parents are disconnected from their children's education.

[mchepp]

Some of the principles of common core make sense to me. For example as a junior golf I would help out in the pro shop during tournaments and big part of that was double checking score cards. At the beginning I was adding each number together 5+3+4+4+4+3+6+4+3=??. A stack of cards would take me a while to process.

The local pro told me you are going about that the wrong way. Just keep 4 as your main number on each hole and then +1, +2, -1, -2 from that. Then at the end add/subtract the total to 36. I flew through scorecards this way. 1/3 of the time it used to take me and fewer mistakes. That pro had basically taught a common core idea to himself. 

The only worry I have is that I will need to learn common core along with my kid to be sure I can help with homework and be sure to help that way. @Golfingdad Do they have materials to learn it on your own? Online resources?

[newtogolf]

1 hour ago, mchepp said:

Some of the principles of common core make sense to me. For example as a junior golf I would help out in the pro shop during tournaments and big part of that was double checking score cards. At the beginning I was adding each number together 5+3+4+4+4+3+6+4+3=??. A stack of cards would take me a while to process.

The local pro told me you are going about that the wrong way. Just keep 4 as your main number on each hole and then +1, +2, -1, -2 from that. Then at the end add/subtract the total to 36. I flew through scorecards this way. 1/3 of the time it used to take me and fewer mistakes. That pro had basically taught a common core idea to himself.

The only worry I have is that I will need to learn common core along with my kid to be sure I can help with homework and be sure to help that way. @Golfingdad Do they have materials to learn it on your own? Online resources?

Sorry but given the way I learned math, adding 9 single digit numbers up shouldn't be very time consuming.  When I look at the list of numbers you provided, I see 8, 16, 23, 33, 36.  I see a lot more potential for problems with the common core method. 

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Sorry but given the way I learned math, adding 9 single digit numbers up shouldn't be very time consuming.  When I look at the list of numbers you provided, I see 8, 16, 23, 33, 36.  I see a lot more potential for problems with the common core method. 

I don't. It's a lot easier to add 2s, 1s, and 0s than fives and threes and sixes. Plus you can skip a lot of holes: any 4 you see, you skip. If there's a 5 and a 3, or a 6 and a 2, you skip those, too.

Here's how I'd read it:
5 3 4 4 4 3 6 4 3
--E-----E-1+1+1 E

Takes less time and is easier. Aaaaaand… you can get so quick at that you just lump the 6 with the two 3s and arrive at "36" in about two seconds.

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, mchepp said:

Some of the principles of common core make sense to me. For example as a junior golf I would help out in the pro shop during tournaments and big part of that was double checking score cards. At the beginning I was adding each number together 5+3+4+4+4+3+6+4+3=??. A stack of cards would take me a while to process.

The local pro told me you are going about that the wrong way. Just keep 4 as your main number on each hole and then +1, +2, -1, -2 from that. Then at the end add/subtract the total to 36. I flew through scorecards this way. 1/3 of the time it used to take me and fewer mistakes. That pro had basically taught a common core idea to himself. 

The only worry I have is that I will need to learn common core along with my kid to be sure I can help with homework and be sure to help that way. @Golfingdad Do they have materials to learn it on your own? Online resources?

Hmmmm, sounds to me like your local pro might also have been a skilled blackjack card counter. ;). My go-to, which admittedly, is probably more complicated than that little trick was to just go by tens.  There are a lot of 4's, 5's , and 6's on scorecards so I usually just find those groups and then add the remaining holes (hopefully 3's and not 7's or 8's).

As far as parental assistance, yeah, there have been a few sheets in the homework packages explaining things to us, and at this point (in first grade) a lot of it is quite self explanatory.  If I think about it next week I'll post a pic of a worksheet.

[newtogolf]

8 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't. It's a lot easier to add 2s, 1s, and 0s than fives and threes and sixes. Plus you can skip a lot of holes: any 4 you see, you skip. If there's a 5 and a 3, or a 6 and a 2, you skip those, too.

Here's how I'd read it:
5 3 4 4 4 3 6 4 3
--E-----E-1+1+1 E

Takes less time and is easier. Aaaaaand… you can get so quick at that you just lump the 6 with the two 3s and arrive at "36" in about two seconds.

That's an easy scorecard to do it with, not as easy when the numbers vary further from par more often.  Maybe it works better with scorecards from good players, which I'm not.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

That's an easy scorecard to do it with, not as easy when the numbers vary further from par more often.  Maybe it works better with scorecards from good players, which I'm not.

I've added scores well into the 40s and even 50s doing this. It's faster overall. And I'm pretty fast at basic addition… It's still easier to add 4 (for an 8) to 17 than it is to add an 8 to 35.

I use the "level 4s" when adding scorecards. Had to do it for the golf tournament I hosted (for Penn-State Behrend) earlier this year. Didn't make a mistake, and each card took about 10-15 seconds (some of those kids do not write very legibly!).