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dnaygs

I would like the PGA Tour to have easier courses

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I would like to see the pros play on easier courses.  I get bored watching them make pars and bogeys on extremely difficult courses.  I can't really appreciate how hard the course is by watching it on TV.  To me it's much more exciting when they're making a lot of birdies and eagles.  I'd like to see a tournament on a simple, relatively short course, with relatively flat greens which aren't super fast and easy pin placements.  I apologize if this has been discussed before.  I'm not talking about pros having to play in our normal public crappy conditions with roots and holes all over the course.  Just everything in good shape and easy.  It's not like the tournament would be easy to win just because the course is easy, you still have to play better than everyone else.  Maybe the winner would be 30 or 40 under, maybe more.  I think it would be more exciting, what do you think?

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I don't have any interest in watching people do easy things... even if that thing would be difficult for me.

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I would like to see the pros play on easier courses.  I get bored watching them make pars and bogeys on extremely difficult courses.  I can't really appreciate how hard the course is by watching it on TV.  To me it's much more exciting when they're making a lot of birdies and eagles.  I'd like to see a tournament on a simple, relatively short course, with relatively flat greens which aren't super fast and easy pin placements.  I apologize if this has been discussed before.  I'm not talking about pros having to play in our normal public crappy conditions with roots and holes all over the course.  Just everything in good shape and easy.  It's not like the tournament would be easy to win just because the course is easy, you still have to play better than everyone else.  Maybe the winner would be 30 or 40 under, maybe more.  I think it would be more exciting, what do you think?

All you have to do then is watch the Humana Challenge.  The cut after 3 days there (because they play 3 different course) is well under par.  Not the leader ... THE CUT.  The winner usually pushes -25 or -30 by the end of it.

I think people in general find that more boring than watching them grind on tougher courses.  I like a mix of both.  Birdie fests are fun some weeks, and tough tests like the US Open or Doral this year are fun other weeks.

To each his own.

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I don't have any interest in watching people do easy things... even if that thing would be difficult for me.


I wouldn't say it's easy to shoot -40 or better over 4 days on any course, for any person.

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eas·y

[ee-zee]  Show IPA

adjective, eas·i·er, eas·i·est.

1.

not hard or difficult; requiring no great labor or effort: a book that is easy to read; an easy victory.

2.

free from pain, discomfort, worry, or care: He led an easy life.

3.

providing or conducive to ease or comfort; comfortable: an easy stance; an easy relationship.

4.

fond of or given to ease; easygoing: an easy disposition.

5.

not harsh or strict; lenient: an easy master.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnaygs

I wouldn't say it's easy to shoot -40 or better over 4 days on any course, for any person.

The final score is irrelevant.  Your original idea suggested an easy course for the pros.  I would find that boring to watch.

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I still see plenty of birdies being made week after week on tour. Most winning scores are in the double digits. I'm watching the first round of The Players and the lead is currently -7, at a tough course.

Making the courses difficult separates the great players from the average players. If all the courses were shorter, pins were in the middle of greens, greens were flat, Brian Gay (nothing against him) might be the #1 player in the world. It would basically become a wedge and putting contest. Making a course easy (to the extent the OP mentioned) doesn't highlight how good these guys really are and devalues the PGA Tour brand.

It would be like if baseball started having pitchers throw the ball slower to give guys a better chance of getting more hits and home runs.

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I still see plenty of birdies being made week after week on tour. Most winning scores are in the double digits. I'm watching the first round of The Players and the lead is currently -7, at a tough course.

Making the courses difficult separates the great players from the average players. If all the courses were shorter, pins were in the middle of greens, greens were flat, Brian Gay (nothing against him) might be the #1 player in the world. It would basically become a wedge and putting contest. Making a course easy (to the extent the OP mentioned) doesn't highlight how good these guys really are and devalues the PGA Tour brand.

It would be like if baseball started having pitchers throw the ball slower to give guys a better chance of getting more hits and home runs.

Agreed. I am not really awed by 250 yard drives on 350 yard par 4s.

There is already such a small variation in skill level in top players that making the courses easier would just make for a whole lot of 60s scores and you would need to play more rounds to separate them.

Wouldn't it make more sense that the pro courses should be even harder so that there is more differentiation in the field?

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I think there would be differentiation no matter how difficult or easy the course may be.  But I agree you would be testing different things.  A PGA pro might look at an easy course and say, that's easy, I could probably shoot -10 four days in a row.  But what if someone else is -11?  Then suddenly they have to be -12, which isn't easy no matter how easy the course is.  (I don't know about the actual numbers, maybe it would be -18, the point is you have to play better than 70 or so other guys who are all good).  I really don't think everyone would shoot -18 all four days and then there would be indefinite playoffs.  Length would still be an issue because there would be a lot of driveable par 4s.  I think it sounds fun to watch.

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I think there would be differentiation no matter how difficult or easy the course may be.  But I agree you would be testing different things.  A PGA pro might look at an easy course and say, that's easy, I could probably shoot -10 four days in a row.  But what if someone else is -11?  Then suddenly they have to be -12, which isn't easy no matter how easy the course is.  (I don't know about the actual numbers, maybe it would be -18, the point is you have to play better than 70 or so other guys who are all good).  I really don't think everyone would shoot -18 all four days and then there would be indefinite playoffs.  Length would still be an issue because there would be a lot of driveable par 4s.  I think it sounds fun to watch.


At some point it will be asymptotic, because at least half the shots will be short game or putting as someone else mentioned in an earlier post.

If they made the courses shorter and put tons of obstacles in the way, I can see that making it harder maybe? It would be more of a distance control and accuracy game?

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The most boring type of golf to watch is when good players are playing well, in some regards. It doesn't show their skills off 100%

You want to see variety - recovery shots and long shots into greens with hazards around them and risk/reward holes.

A couple of years ago I watched Adam Scott and Geoff Ogilvy play together. They both had 66 or 67, neither missed a fairway or green and it was B  O   R   I  N  G.

Not saying I would find it boring if I played that way.

But the shots you remember guys like Phil playing are the crazy risky ones.

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No thank you.  I enjoy seeing the best players in the world challenged to show us why they're the best.

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Wouldn't it make more sense that the pro courses should be even harder so that there is more differentiation in the field?


They are already pretty hard IMO. You want it to be challenging but also reward/make it fair for players that are able to hit quality shots. US Open conditions every week wouldn't be great either.

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The most boring type of golf to watch is when good players are playing well, in some regards. It doesn't show their skills off 100%

You want to see variety - recovery shots and long shots into greens with hazards around them and risk/reward holes.

A couple of years ago I watched Adam Scott and Geoff Ogilvy play together. They both had 66 or 67, neither missed a fairway or green and it was B  O   R   I  N  G.

Not saying I would find it boring if I played that way.

But the shots you remember guys like Phil playing are the crazy risky ones.

No, YOU want to see variety, I want to see birdies and eagles.  An amazing risky shot can be entertaining to me sometimes.  But I'm more amused when someone sticks it to 2 feet from the middle of the fairway.  I don't even really care about a good putt most of the time.  I rarely watch golf live so I can fast forward through all the stuff I find boring (like putting and saving par or bogey), not that other people can't enjoy it.

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No, YOU want to see variety, I want to see birdies and eagles.  An amazing risky shot can be entertaining to me sometimes.  But I'm more amused when someone sticks it to 2 feet from the middle of the fairway.  I don't even really care about a good putt most of the time.  I rarely watch golf live so I can fast forward through all the stuff I find boring (like putting and saving par or bogey), not that other people can't enjoy it.

You make it sound as if you don't really like watching golf all that much... I'm with the majority here. I like seeing top players playing top courses. Watching the greatest players in the world struggling to make pars at Carnoustie when the wind is blowing, all that stuff. Just seeing people playing target golf under easy conditions sounds desperately dull.

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No thank you.  I enjoy seeing the best players in the world challenged to show us why they're the best.

[quote name="krupa" url="/t/74421/i-would-like-the-pga-tour-to-have-easier-courses#post_987450"]I don't have any interest in watching people do easy things... even if that thing would be difficult for me.  [/quote] I agree with the above, conversely winning scores of -22 or greater I found uneventfull and yes boring

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Originally Posted by David in FL

No thank you.  I enjoy seeing the best players in the world challenged to show us why they're the best.

If someone is -49 and you have to shoot -50 to win, that's a challenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krupa

I don't have any interest in watching people do easy things... even if that thing would be difficult for me.

I don't think shooting -50 on even the easiest course in the world over 4 days would generally be considered easy.

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Completely disagree. I want to see the best players in the world challenged to the limit. If you want to watch birdie fests, the Golf Channel shows the Nationwide Tour every week.

I don't think the Masters would be as popular if guys were in the -20s. I don't think the US Open would have an "identity" if -30 was the winning score. What makes these tournaments what they are is the difficulty that professionals must face and how they handle those tough conditions and tough setups. I personally find events like the Humana where the winning score is 30-under par boring as can be.

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I totally get that most people seem to find it boring (although I don't).  All I'm saying is that there would still be a challenge.  Instead of the course presenting the challenge, the players would be challenging each other.  Like I said before, even on a super easy course, if someone shoots -49 over four days and you have to shoot -50, that's still a challenge.

It's like bowling.  It's very easy for a professional to throw a strike.  But if the guy next to you just had 11 in a row and you have to have 12 to win, that's when it gets tough.

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