I'd Be Scratch with a Better Mental Game

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, freshmanUTA said:

You know, I've asked myself that. Am I really this good or am I always going to shoot poorly at the end? I think it's a mix of both, I strike the ball well, not amazing but a majority are center strikes. I can consistently make a certain shot shape, which for me is a fade. I play poorly if I try to draw the ball, either not enough practice or a lack of understanding. It's just when I have a blowup hole then I start saying things like "Let's try a draw here, why not I already butchered last hole what do I have to lose" then I'll block it right, or I'll say "let's try to hit X shot" when I know I haven't practiced them enough. The one that I always try and fail is the 30-40 yard spinning shot that bounced once and stops.

 

So yeah, I'm not crazy skilled but I feel if I stopped playing like an idiot my average scores wouldn't be in the mid to high 80's

Then stop playing like an idiot.

I still bet that you're confusing cause and effect somewhat… you're blaming a bad shot by looking back and finding a reason. When you hit a good shot you don't look back. You might find the same reason but no "effect" because you don't consider a good outcome an "effect" worth investigation.

[freshmanUTA]

35 minutes ago, iacas said:

Then stop playing like an idiot.

I still bet that you're confusing cause and effect somewhat… you're blaming a bad shot by looking back and finding a reason. When you hit a good shot you don't look back. You might find the same reason but no "effect" because you don't consider a good outcome an "effect" worth investigation.

Yeah I just have to overcome the bad shots and understand that they happen. most of my blowup holes come from bad drives which is what I'm working on, finally found a good instructor and he's helped so much more than I ever thought an instructor could. I brought your book in to show him how I've been practicing and he read the chapter on separation values and literally said "Keep reading this, these guys are genius"

 

My irons are the strongest part of my game, followed by driver, and chipping is the weakest and driving and short game are what I'm working on ATM.

[Ernest Jones]

2 hours ago, freshmanUTA said:

You know, I've asked myself that. Am I really this good or am I always going to shoot poorly at the end? I think it's a mix of both, I strike the ball well, not amazing but a majority are center strikes. I can consistently make a certain shot shape, which for me is a fade. I play poorly if I try to draw the ball, either not enough practice or a lack of understanding. It's just when I have a blowup hole then I start saying things like "Let's try a draw here, why not I already butchered last hole what do I have to lose" then I'll block it right, or I'll say "let's try to hit X shot" when I know I haven't practiced them enough. The one that I always try and fail is the 30-40 yard spinning shot that bounced once and stops.

 

So yeah, I'm not crazy skilled but I feel if I stopped playing like an idiot my average scores wouldn't be in the mid to high 80's

The bolded is a terrible mindset. I score my best when I approach every shot as an opportunity to advance my ball closer to the hole, regardless of what has happened prior to that shot. Have a plan and stick to it. 

[mvmac]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

I still bet that you're confusing cause and effect somewhat… you're blaming a bad shot by looking back and finding a reason. When you hit a good shot you don't look back.

Right, good point.

[freshmanUTA]

10 hours ago, mvmac said:

Right, good point.

correct me if I'm wrong but;

I think the reason I don't 'look back' on good shots is because a majority of my shots do what I want them to. Maybe not perfect, but at least close to what I want. Maybe if my bad shots were more common than good shots I'd look back on the good ones to try to remember what I did when I hit a good shot

[mvmac]

40 minutes ago, freshmanUTA said:

correct me if I'm wrong but;

I think the reason I don't 'look back' on good shots is because a majority of my shots do what I want them to. Maybe not perfect, but at least close to what I want. Maybe if my bad shots were more common than good shots I'd look back on the good ones to try to remember what I did when I hit a good shot

I'm just saying @iacas provided an interesting perspective.

I tend to look at things differently than you do. Even on a good round I feel like I only hit a few good shots with the majority of the other shots being average or "good" misses.

Also whether you hit a good or bad shot, it is important to understand you basically made the same swing.

[Abu3baid]

18 minutes ago, mvmac said:

I'm just saying @iacas provided an interesting perspective.

I tend to look at things differently than you do. Even on a good round I feel like I only hit a few good shots with the majority of the other shots being average or "good" misses.

Also whether you hit a good or bad shot, it is important to understand you basically made the same swing.

Doesn't this also go back to how it seems like the worst the player is the more delusional they are about how good they are?  Basically the closer you get to scratch the more you start understanding how much you suck..  

Thanks to everything I have learned here I no longer delude my self, and it is refreshing.  

[iacas]

3 hours ago, freshmanUTA said:

correct me if I'm wrong but;

I think the reason I don't 'look back' on good shots is because a majority of my shots do what I want them to. Maybe not perfect, but at least close to what I want. Maybe if my bad shots were more common than good shots I'd look back on the good ones to try to remember what I did when I hit a good shot

We likely have very different definitions of "good" shots, then.

If I were a betting man, your "good" shots may be "better" than your bad ones, but they're not really all that "good" or you'd not be a 12.

You're putting too much blame, I'd also bet, on a few bad shots. They're in the minority… but yet, you're a 12, so it's the majority of the shots that are making you a 12.

[Par Fore]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

We likely have very different definitions of "good" shots, then.

If I were a betting man, your "good" shots may be "better" than your bad ones, but they're not really all that "good" or you'd not be a 12.

You're putting too much blame, I'd also bet, on a few bad shots. They're in the minority… but yet, you're a 12, so it's the majority of the shots that are making you a 12.

Looks in mirror.

Sees truth in this statement.

Realizes the truth stings a bit.

FYI, speaking for myself, not for anyone else above and here......this makes sense.  Played as a single today, was partnered up with a twosome....one of them played to scratch, or at least his skillset did.  His miss off the tee was the wrong side of the fairway, or just a little short, or barely in the rough. I hit like 3 fairways the entire day (yes, rough day off the box).  A missed approach shot for him left him with a 30-40 foot putt, my miss was anywhere from just off the green to 50 yards short.  His par putts were almost all within 3 feet, most being tap-ins, my par and bogey putts were 3-10 feet.  I hit in the drink 3 times, and twice on the same hole.  He didn't have a single penalty shot.

Unfortunately, lots of truth to what Erik says.  It hit me today.  Hurts a bit, but if you want to get better, recommend you take a good look.  

[Big Lex]

Being much better at what most people think of as the "mental game" would improve someone at my level probably 1-2 shots per round on average.  I'm talking about club selection, shot selection (go for it v lay up or punch out, etc), etc. 

 

[iacas]

13 hours ago, Big Lex said:

Being much better at what most people think of as the "mental game" would improve someone at my level probably 1-2 shots per round on average.  I'm talking about club selection, shot selection (go for it v lay up or punch out, etc), etc. 

We don't call that "the mental game."

We call that GamePlanning, and it is an SV④ skill because it can improve a player quite a number of strokes.

[Big Lex]

Game planning....what Nicklaus and Hogan might have called course management. I think of these as a mental skill. But I can see where someone could want to separate this out from other mental things.....such as......

What you consider the mental game, then, is sports psychology elements, like adhering to a preshot routine, remaining process-focused rather than outcome-focused, not getting emotional, etc.?

 

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

We don't call that "the mental game."

We call that GamePlanning, and it is an SV④ skill because it can improve a player quite a number of strokes.

Curious....do you agree with how I quantified the importance of GamePlanning? In other words, take a 7 index golfer, and assume he has "average" GamePlanning skills for his hcp level. If he improved to have excellent GamePlanning, how much would his index go down? I suggested 1 to 2 strokes. Is that too high, too low, or about right?

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

What you consider the mental game, then, is sports psychology elements, like adhering to a preshot routine, remaining process-focused rather than outcome-focused, not getting emotional, etc.?

Yup. Stuff that doesn't go to GamePlanning.

13 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

Curious....do you agree with how I quantified the importance of GamePlanning? In other words, take a 7 index golfer, and assume he has "average" GamePlanning skills for his hcp level. If he improved to have excellent GamePlanning, how much would his index go down? I suggested 1 to 2 strokes. Is that too high, too low, or about right?

Given that it's an SV④ skill, it's probably about right.

[Big Lex]

On one he hit a "good" driver you said, and then on another hole he hit a mulligan and "piped it." How good were those shots? Did he have 100mph driver club head speed at least?

What did he do on the 10th hole that you had to skip?

[GolfLug]

8 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

On one he hit a "good" driver you said, and then on another hole he hit a mulligan and "piped it." How good were those shots? Did he have 100mph driver club head speed at least?

What did he do on the 10th hole that you had to skip?

@iacas has good memory, so maybe he can remember what happened almost 2 years ago, but my guess is he put himself in 'time out' for a hole.

[Big Lex]

14 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

@iacas has good memory, so maybe he can remember what happened almost 2 years ago, but my guess is he put himself in 'time out' for a hole.

 

[iacas]

26 minutes ago, Big Lex said:

On one he hit a "good" driver you said, and then on another hole he hit a mulligan and "piped it." How good were those shots? Did he have 100mph driver club head speed at least?

What did he do on the 10th hole that you had to skip?

Took a quad or something. Club head speed was 95-ish with driver.

The "goodness" of his very few good shots is not particularly relevant. That's not the golfer he is.

[Big Lex]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

Took a quad or something. Club head speed was 95-ish with driver.

The "goodness" of his very few good shots is not particularly relevant. That's not the golfer he is.

One of the interesting things about golf I've learned is the way in which people misjudge ability, their own and others.

There is a guy at my club who bounces between about a 13 and 16. But every year he usually shoots one round in the 70s. He is a good putter, and has a lot of club head speed, at least 105 with a driver. When he hits a good iron shot, it is a GOOD iron shot, hit crisp, goes high, has lots of spin. He can hit very high quality shots, but he has a flawed swing and is just incredibly erratic. He takes no lessons and just does the same thing every year; he loves golf and, while wishing he were better, he's more content to play at his level than to do all the work necessary to get better. But he could be a very low handicap player.

Then there are any number of guys who are better than him by 3 or 4 strokes, but they don't have anywhere near the game he does. They hit it 205-210 tops, are a little straighter but with a worse swing....some of their accuracy advantage over the first guy is simply that they can't hit it as far, so more of their sideways shots remain playable. They know the course and the greens extremely well and avoid trouble better than the first guy.

The point? The first guy thinks most of the other guys are better than he is. Technically they are, but in ability they are not close.

He under-estimates his potential. There are other guys who over-estimate their potential.

I was trying to see which of these broad types your playing companion was more like.

I don't know if this is true, but I am guessing that unless we are talking about golfers over the age of maybe 55 or so, the statistical chance of being a scratch golfer with a driver swing speed of 95 are almost zero.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Big Lex