Are you ready for some NFL Football? 2014 Edition.

[saevel25]

Walking is now a "football move"? It's very common in GOLF, too, Matt. Or, you know, grocery shopping. :) Or going after a bus you're about to mi

Plus, don't you have to gain possession and THEN make a football move? Failing that, you have to demonstrate possession TO THE GROUND, right?

None of those conditions were met.

Then what is considered a football move?

I would consider any action or move taken under the power of the player with possession of the ball is considered a football move.

A player who catches the ball, secures it, plants his foot and lunges towards the goal has performed a football move. Players have been lunging towards the goaline for a very long time. I find it hard to believe that isn't considered a football move.

That's what I was trying to say. He doesn't have full control of the ball until he's falling, so he doesn't "catch it" and THEN make a "football move".

I am saying he did have possession before he was going towards the ground. It was transfered to his left hand before he took the step to lunge towards the goal line.

[Dave2512]

Elway is taking a beating on the local radio shows today.

[iacas]

Then what is considered a football move?

Something that occurs after the catch. Didn't happen here. I also see no "extending" or "stretching."

I would consider any action or move taken under the power of the player with possession of the ball is considered a football move.

Like breathing? How about waving your hand like a princess? If you pee yourself, is that "under the power of the player" or does that border too close to trying to determine intent ("Did he MEAN to pee himself, or was that an accident?")

A player who catches the ball, secures it, plants his foot and lunges towards the goal has performed a football move. Players have been lunging towards the goaline for a very long time. I find it hard to believe that isn't considered a football move.

If they maintain control of the ball to the ground, that's a TD, but not because they made a football move as the catch has not been completed yet. In that instance, two things occur simultaneously: a catch is made (going to the ground), and the play ends because the ball has crossed the plane of the end zone.

I am saying he did have possession before he was going towards the ground. It was transfered to his left hand before he took the step to lunge towards the goal line.

You're wrong. :) He has to demonstrate possession to the ground. He did not.

[saevel25]

You're wrong. :) He has to demonstrate possession to the ground. He did not.

Nope

[CarlSpackler]

Then what is considered a football move?

The Icky Shuffle...

[phan52]

No he wasn't.

I've downloaded and watched the video many times. I see no "stretching" or "extending." I realize too your shoulder pads make this difficult, but… to that, I submit this:

He appears to be down by contact (chest and hip) in that last photo before the ball ever touches the ground. after he took three steps and lunged toward the goal line. Catch. Ground can't cause a fumble. Refs got it right the fist time.

[Slice of Life]

He appears to be down by contact (chest) in that last photo before the ball ever touches the ground. fter he took three steps and lunged toward the goal line. Catch. Ground can't cause a fumble.

Ground can cause an incompletion. And he didn't fully possess the ball until he was falling toward the ground.

[Golfingdad]

He appears to be down by contact (chest) in that last photo before the ball ever touches the ground. fter he took three steps and lunged toward the goal line. Catch. Ground can't cause a fumble.

Yes, but the ground isn't causing a fumble here, it's causing an incompletion.  Different circumstances, different rules.

I tend to agree with you, though, that it seems gray area ENOUGH as to whether or not he "completed" the catch - and given the refs propensity to agree with themselves, usually - that it's surprising that it got overturned.

[phan52]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

He appears to be down by contact (chest and hip) in that last photo before the ball ever touches the ground. after he took three steps and lunged toward the goal line. Catch. Ground can't cause a fumble. Refs got it right the fist time.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Ground can cause an incompletion. And he didn't fully possess the ball until he was falling toward the ground.

BS. He had the ball secure from the second it touched his hands..

[Slice of Life]

BS. He had the ball secure from the second it touched his hands..

Watch the video again. He absolutely did not, and I don't even understand how anyone would debate that...

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

He appears to be down by contact (chest and hip) in that last photo before the ball ever touches the ground. after he took three steps and lunged toward the goal line. Catch. Ground can't cause a fumble. Refs got it right the fist time.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Ground can cause an incompletion. And he didn't fully possess the ball until he was falling toward the ground.

BS. He had the ball secure from the second it touched his hands..

No he didn't.  He secured it while going  to ground.  It is obvious in the slow motion video.

[dsc123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

He's lost it over the past few weeks...I wonder if his neck problems are resurfacing. Seems like he's lost strength and is trying to overcompensate...resulting in overthrows.

Quote:

Denver Broncos quarterback Peyton Manning played Sunday's divisional-round playoff game and the past month of the season with a torn right quadriceps, two sources told ESPN.

---

Instead of everybody talking about what they think the rule is, why not look at the full rule?

Quote:

Article 3 Completed or Intercepted Pass. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete
(by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act
common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an
opponent, etc.).
Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.
Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must
lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.
If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.
Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact
by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the
field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control,
the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.
Item 2: Sideline Catches. If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an opponent) in the
process of making a catch at the sideline, he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball throughout
the process of contacting the ground, or the pass is incomplete.
Item 3: End Zone Catches. The requirements for a catch in the end zone are the same as the requirements for a catch in
the field of play.
Note: In the field of play, if a catch of a forward pass has been completed, after which contact by a defender causes the ball to
become loose before the runner is down by contact, it is a fumble, and the ball remains alive. In the end zone, the same
action is a touchdown, since the receiver completed the catch beyond the goal line prior to the loss of possession, and the
ball is dead when the catch is completed.
Item 4: Ball Touches Ground. If the ball touches the ground after the player secures control of it, it is a catch, provided
that the player continues to maintain control.
Item 5: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the
ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently
gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing
team become eligible to catch the loose ball.
Item 6: Carried Out of Bounds. If a player, who is in possession of the ball, is held up and carried out of bounds by an
opponent before both feet or any part of his body other than his hands touches the ground inbounds, it is a completed
or intercepted pass.

So a and b are clearly met and I don't think anyone disputes that.  The confusion is c, whether he maintained control long enough to make a football move.  But how can you say he doesn't "advance" the ball?  If he were falling down and not trying to advance it he would have tucked it.  He doesn't have to "advance it 1 yard" or "advance it by extending his arm completely."  He secured it, got both feet and and elbow in bounds, then reached then advanced the ball somewhat.

And what a stupid rule.  Why not just leave it at a and b?  If you "secure" the ball and establish yourself in bounds, why isnt that enough?  Without even considering the vagueness of c, what is gained by requiring them to then continue to secure possession longer?  But the vagueness of what's long enough to perform a football move just invites problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Something that occurs after the catch. Didn't happen here. I also see no "extending" or "stretching."

He doesn't have to "extend" or "stretch", though I think he did "extend," he just has to "advance" the ball.  He didn't tuck the ball, he reached it out and forward.  If you look at the first 2 photos @saevel25 posted you see that the ball is closer to his body than in the last one.

Also, the rule is stupid for saying that "advancing" the ball is a football move, since that would technically be true anytime the player falls forward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

If they maintain control of the ball to the ground, that's a TD, but not because they made a football move as the catch has not been completed yet. In that instance, two things occur simultaneously: a catch is made (going to the ground), and the play ends because the ball has crossed the plane of the end zone.

aa

I don't think that's right.  Item 3 above says the rule is the same for the endzone, which should mean that they still have to maintain possession, unless they've already had time to complete a football move.  So when you see a guy catch, lunge across, and drop the ball, its a catch because the lunge is a football move--the catch was already complete.  (Its not a fumble because it it broke the plane).  With Dez they say he didn't make a football move, which I disagree with for the reason above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

You're wrong. :) He has to demonstrate possession to the ground. He did not.

I think through the ground only applies if you haven't otherwise achieved a, b, and c.  I think if you make a  "football move" after securing the ball then you did not go to the ground in the act of catching, since the act of catching was complete with the football move.

[boogielicious]

He failed on C and Item 1.

[phan52]

Yes, but the ground isn't causing a fumble here, it's causing an incompletion.  Different circumstances, different rules.

I tend to agree with you, though, that it seems gray area ENOUGH as to whether or not he "completed" the catch - and given the refs propensity to agree with themselves, usually - that it's surprising that it got overturned.

He caught the ball, was touched by the defender, made a move "common to the game" and landed on his chest and hip before the ball contacted the ground. Down by contact. Catch. They got it right the first time and everything I see confirms it. If they called it incomplete from the start I wouldn't bitch because it is a gray area, but I see nothing that gives them reason to overturn the original call.

JMO.

[dsc123]

He failed on C and Item 1.

You don't think he advanced the ball?

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Yes, but the ground isn't causing a fumble here, it's causing an incompletion.  Different circumstances, different rules.

I tend to agree with you, though, that it seems gray area ENOUGH as to whether or not he "completed" the catch - and given the refs propensity to agree with themselves, usually - that it's surprising that it got overturned.

He caught the ball, was touched by the defender, made a move "common to the game" and landed on his chest and hip before the ball contacted the ground. Down by contact. Catch. They got it right the first time and everything I see confirms it. If they called it incomplete from the start I wouldn't bitch because it is a gray area, but I see nothing that gives them reason to overturn the original call.

JMO.

Your JMO is incorrect.  If falling to the ground is a move "common to the game" then you would be correct.  But it is not.  Simple.

[phan52]

Your JMO is incorrect.  If falling to the ground is a move "common to the game" then you would be correct.  But it is not.  Simple.

He took three steps and lunged for the goal line. If that isn't a football move, I don't know what is. And BTW, I am glad they changed it. I can't stand Dez Bryant. But they got screwed.

[Slice of Life]

This screengrab (though blurry) shows the ball NOT in control by Dez. He gains control as he lands down, and the landing/stumbling/falling is all one move, which is simultaneously being made while securing the catch...not after securing it.

IMO, this should be a catch...just because it's dumb that it's not. But by the rules as they are, it is incomplete.