Royal & Ancient Golf Club to Vote on Allowing Females

[chasm]

The question isn't what the club has the right to do, it is what it ought to do. The R&A;, as a club, no longer governs the game here, it devolved that responsibility to a separate company some years ago. But it retains a symbolic status as the custodian of the history and ethos of the game. As such, what it chooses to do matters, in setting a tone and influencing public perception of golf and the way it is run. That being the case, it is ludicrous that at a time when the national associations are trying to increase participation in the sport and, specifically, to attract more women to play, some R&A; members think it appropriate to continue to exclude women. Talk about counter-productive - as well, of course, as antedeluvian.

[imsys0042]

I think there are two different arguments going on here.

The first question, should a private club be allowed to restrict its membership? Of course the answer to that is yes. It's private. So long as it is funded and operated by the personal memberships of those involved and no public funds support it, it's nobody's business.

The second question, ought, in this day and age, there be golf clubs that that bar women members? Brown Coast's argument seems to be that it is a backward and outdated way of thinking. I tend to agree, particularly with golf on the decline as is often discussed here.

All that said, if you don't want me, if my money isn't good enough for you, then I damn sure don't want you either.  Somebody else can have my time, money and business, and you can sod off.

I agree with all of this.   I believe in the right for private individuals to get together as they see fit, to the first point.   People who are discriminatory in how they do that are fair game to be discriminated back if they have immoral or backwards beliefs on topics of gender, race or other categories for exclusion.

For the second point, I think that a golf course is the wrong point to bar certain people from playing.   I fully support a men's or women's section of the club where people can get together, as well as men only and ladies only tee times to golf if courses are so inclined (thankfully mine does not do this).   However to bar people from what is usually a nice golf course and environment like that is just stupid.

[Moxie Dawn]

What does "sod off" mean? Whatever it means, I think I like it.

It's British slang, and means what you think it means.

[misty_mountainhop]

The question isn't what the club has the right to do, it is what it ought to do. The R&A;, as a club, no longer governs the game here, it devolved that responsibility to a separate company some years ago. But it retains a symbolic status as the custodian of the history and ethos of the game. As such, what it chooses to do matters, in setting a tone and influencing public perception of golf and the way it is run.

That being the case, it is ludicrous that at a time when the national associations are trying to increase participation in the sport and, specifically, to attract more women to play, some R&A; members think it appropriate to continue to exclude women. Talk about counter-productive - as well, of course, as antedeluvian.

Spot on.

I agree with all of this.   I believe in the right for private individuals to get together as they see fit, to the first point.   People who are discriminatory in how they do that are fair game to be discriminated back if they have immoral or backwards beliefs on topics of gender, race or other categories for exclusion....

Really? You think it's a good idea to lower oneself to the same level in that way??? I understand why you might think that way, but in no sensible way is it 'fair game'.

[imsys0042]

Spot on. Really? You think it's a good idea to lower oneself to the same level in that way??? I understand why you might think that way, but in no sensible way is it 'fair game'.

It's worse to lower yourself to put up with people who discrimate against others. I don't go out of my way to cause problems, but I'd prefer to not associate with people who discriminate against others. Should they say something terrible, I usually let it be known how I feel. But for the most part it's passive in that I won't associate with people who express bigotry against others.

[iacas]

It's worse to lower yourself to put up with people who discrimate against others. I don't go out of my way to cause problems, but I'd prefer to not associate with people who discriminate against others. Should they say something terrible, I usually let it be known how I feel. But for the most part it's passive in that I won't associate with people who express bigotry against others.

Choosing to be a male-only club is not the same thing as "expressing bigotry against others."

It's simply choosing to associate with people you like. We do this kind of thing ALL the time - choose those with whom you spend time.

I maintain that I support the R&A;'s right to do as they please, whether they choose to allow women or continue to prefer to remain men-only.

[imsys0042]

Choosing to be a male-only club is not the same thing as "expressing bigotry against others." It's simply choosing to associate with people you like. We do this kind of thing ALL the time - choose those with whom you spend time. I maintain that I support the R&A;'s right to do as they please, whether they choose to allow women or continue to prefer to remain men-only.

And I happen to agree with you, I'm speaking in a more general sense. It's perfectly fine to have male/female only areas or clubs. On the specific point of a golf club I don't believe in male or female only because I'd hate to exclude someone from what is probably a nice course. What I don't like is people getting together and specifically deciding they don't want to put up with a particular sort of person and exclude them in a malicious way. Plenty of men only, and women only times, at my course and that's perfectly fine I suppose it's ok to have a male only club, but I know too many women who are too much fun to be around to not have them there. Please don't think that I think that expressing wanting to be with xyz people as bigotry. I want to be in places where everyone is welcome and if you have your own clique, that's fine too. But I've hit plenty of people who are just mean to different kinds of people and that bugs me.

[newtogolf]

< Sarcasm

Let's force all private clubs to get rid of their ridiculously high initiation fees and annual dues so the poor can join.  Let's get rid of Mens Rooms and Ladies Rooms, we're all equal, no reason we can't all pee and crap together.  Oh yeah and sorry Curves, if big fat guys want to watch you ladies work out, it's all good.  I say we all get ARPA discounts and get rid of senior citizen housing too, why should the elderly be the only ones to get good deals on housing?

This mentality that private organizations are discriminatory if they restrict membership is ridiculous.  You can't pick and choose which ones you like or dislike, it's either a private club can or can't restrict membership based on age, sex, etc.

[BrownCoast]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by imsys0042

I suppose it's ok to have a male only club, but I know too many women who are too much fun to be around to not have them there. Please don't think that I think that expressing wanting to be with xyz people as bigotry. I want to be in places where everyone is welcome and if you have your own clique, that's fine too. But I've hit plenty of people who are just mean to different kinds of people and that bugs me.

I'm not a violent person but I can't agree with you more!!! Some people just need a good beating! Some of the funnest people I have golfed with were females. We've had work golf days where 20-36 of us got together and played golf. great golfers and hackers. Men and Women. It was so much fun!!! why leave them out of certain places, I don't know? I guess in the end it really is their loss and if they want to continue to look like sexist idiots then may their wives find better men...wait, they probably aren't married. Lets face it these guys sound like they couldn't get laid if they paid for it.

[vangator]

If a club forced to allow women, I think they should be forced to allow poor people to join. Make those rich 1% pay for them. I think all golf courses should be free (paid for by taxes).

[BrownCoast]

If a club forced to allow women, I think they should be forced to allow poor people to join. Make those rich 1% pay for them. I think all golf courses should be free (paid for by taxes).

I think we might all wish they were free but no they shouldn't be free and in no way should tax payers pay for it! As far as affording to play and not being able to play because of sex or race, those are 2 very different things, VERY VERY DIFFERENT. (not meant as yelling, just accentuating the point)

On a side note to this, does this club allow women who once were men or men who once were women to join? I'm not trying to be a smart ass here I'm asking because I think it does pertain to this topic. Or do they not allow any trans-gender person to join? My guess is they don't but thats just a guess and holds no merit to if they do or don't.

[imsys0042]

I'm not a violent person but I can't agree with you more!!! Some people just need a good beating! Some of the funnest people I have golfed with were females. We've had work golf days where 20-36 of us got together and played golf. great golfers and hackers. Men and Women. It was so much fun!!! why leave them out of certain places, I don't know? :hmm:  I guess in the end it really is their loss and if they want to continue to look like sexist idiots then may their wives find better men...wait, they probably aren't married. Lets face it these guys sound like they couldn't get laid if they paid for it.

Ouch. My post should read "I've met" not "I've hit". If I hit people like that all the time I'd get thrown out of my golf club. 50% of the membership there are spoiled, pampered, self-entitled adult babies who think the staff at the club should wipe their south 40 and smile while doing it. I'd not have lasted a week there. But I appreciate the imagery and sentiment of hitting bad people. :-D

[NJpatbee]

If we are talking about membership in a golf club, then I believe they can do what they want, although if I had a vote I would support allowing women.  I respect golfing tradition, but these are the people that still believe that the only hazards on a golf course are sand and water and the USGA follows suit, which is poppycock (traditional saying).

[Braivo]

Men hanging out with other men, without women present, is great for male emotional health.  The opportunities to do so have dwindled over the past 50 years.  There is nothing exclusionary about a private club of men wanting it to be as such.

[BrownCoast]

Ouch. My post should read "I've met" not "I've hit". If I hit people like that all the time I'd get thrown out of my golf club. 50% of the membership there are spoiled, pampered, self-entitled adult babies who think the staff at the club should wipe their south 40 and smile while doing it. I'd not have lasted a week there.

But I appreciate the imagery and sentiment of hitting bad people.

Met, hit, its all the same lol. I'm not a fan of stuck up people, and I honestly don't know whats worse stuck up people or stuck up rich people!?! Either way, they are entitled to have their own beliefs and we are entitled to meet them if we so choose...if that leads to hitting them then I guess they get what they deserve (in my mind)