Club Championship- with or without Handicap?

[MEfree]

Last year I won my first Men's Club Championship- 2 rounds gross stroke play- Everyone played even from the back tees in the Championship flight.  Anyone who had played in at least 3 Men's League events prior to the Club Championship was eligible to play.

This year, they mentioned towards the beginning of the season that the Club Championship would be Match Play.  About 10 days ago, they announced they would seed people into 2 brackets (one from middle tees, one from front tees) based on our 4 best league scores  (Daily formats included 2 individual gross/net days, an individual Mystery Hole day, a "poker putt" day, a two player best ball day and a four player best ball day).

Yesterday they announced that they had seeded all players in a single 23 person bracket based on their 3 low scores.  Matches are to be played from the middle tees (5517 yards, 64.8/113) at 75% of the differential between the two players handicaps.  I have a bye the 1st round, but in the round of 16, will have to give either 11 or 20 shots to my opponent.

About half as many guys competed in League this year compared to last season (mostly because they raised the pass price). However, we have a new sub 3 index player who I was looking forward to competing against in defending my Club Championship title. Now I don't even feel there is a true Club Championship to win this season.

[dbuck]

I didn't vote because I don't have a real preference between the first two, although maybe slightly biased toward match play. I think there should be 1-3 non championship flights depending on the size of the club and range of abilities among other factors, but I think the championship flight should be no handicaps, level matches, and same tees as decided by the committee. For the non-championship flights, the tees should be age, gender, and ability appropriate and full handicaps if the committee feels they are reasonably accurate, or in your case based on league scores.

[Golfingdad]

I've never been a member of a club, but I've always hoped that when I become one, the Championship flight Club Championship would have to end on gross match play.  The start would depend on the quantity of players entered.  If there is more than 16 players, I'd say gross qualifier to seed gross match.  16 or less, and I'd just skip straight to gross match.

Obviously, it gets more complicated if the range of handicaps is great or if you have an outlier - you can't very well have a gross championship of 16 players if one of them is a +3 and the next best is a -4 or something.

[Dave2512]

I've seen smaller tournaments seeded and ending in a shootout when the top players reach the end of their bracket. With 16 the top four finishers would move on to a sudden death hole by hole shootout falling away until one remains. Just watched one at my parents club and it was interesting. The range of players in the shootout varied from + to just over 10. Really came down to which kept their cool and everyone had a shot at winning. The crowd following them was huge so nerves got the best of some of the better players. But this was set up as a shoot out, it's an annual event. The buy in is hefty so is the purse, this year it was over 10K.

[Big C]

In our club, the Club champion is the winner of a 3 day stroke play event. Low Gross total. They also have an "A" and a "B" flight, both of which play off net. You can choose to play net or gross when signing up, but almost everyone below a 4 index chooses the gross. And it is generally recognized that the gross winner is the only "true" champion.

My club also has a match play championship that runs from August - November. We have 80 participants and 5 flights, so the maximum strokes anyone would typically have to give would be 3 or 4. All 5 winners are recognized as the match play champions.

In response to your original question, if I had to choose between the two, I would say the club championship should always be played off gross, but I am ambivalent on the format. Personally, I love match play, so I am glad my club does both.

[Big C]

  Golfingdad said:

I've never been a member of a club, but I've always hoped that when I become one, the Championship flight Club Championship would have to end on gross match play.  The start would depend on the quantity of players entered.  If there is more than 16 players, I'd say gross qualifier to seed gross match.  16 or less, and I'd just skip straight to gross match.

Obviously, it gets more complicated if the range of handicaps is great or if you have an outlier - you can't very well have a gross championship of 16 players if one of them is a +3 and the next best is a -4 or something.

I agree with your first paragraph, but not with your second.

If there is a player who is clearly better than the field, he will rightly be the club champion until the rest of the membership improves enough to compete with him, or until he gets bored and joins a club with better competition. I think a club championship should always be played off gross regardless of how the strokes differ from club to club.

[MS256]

To me "the club champion" signifies the best player at the club. No handicaps.

They can have other flights for handicap players and they can win their respective flights but they aren't the club champion.

I always ended up in the championship flight without a snowball's chance in Hell of winning but I wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

I would have felt silly getting strokes and being called club champion over people that could beat me on any day.

[MEfree]

  Dave2512 said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I've seen smaller tournaments seeded and ending in a shootout when the top players reach the end of their bracket. With 16 the top four finishers would move on to a sudden death hole by hole shootout falling away until one remains. Just watched one at my parents club and it was interesting. The range of players in the shootout varied from + to just over 10. Really came down to which kept their cool and everyone had a shot at winning. The crowd following them was huge so nerves got the best of some of the better players. But this was set up as a shoot out, it's an annual event. The buy in is hefty so is the purse, this year it was over 10K.

Shootouts are a lot of fun- I have seen some where there is a pari-mutuel that anyone can buy in on but have never seen the winner called the "Club Champion"

Years ago, when I caddied for an invitational that ended in a shootout, I noticed that a decent player didn't bother betting on himself and had no other betting interest so I threw down $5 on 3rd place and cashed a nice ticket when he finished in the $.

  Big C said:

Originally Posted by Big C

In our club, the Club champion is the winner of a 3 day stroke play event. Low Gross total. They also have an "A" and a "B" flight, both of which play off net. You can choose to play net or gross when signing up, but almost everyone below a 4 index chooses the gross. And it is generally recognized that the gross winner is the only "true" champion.

That's what we had last year, but it was only two rounds.  Lots of guys who could have played in the 2nd flight opted to play in the Championship flight and nobody refers to the 2nd and 3rd flight winners as Club Champ.  I had no issue with us going to Match Play, but I am disappointed that a guy with a 30+ index could win because of all the strokes they get (In our last individual event, a 32 index parred the last 6 holes to shoot 49-37= 86 so he might be tough to beat if he stays hot).

FWIW, we are playing 75% of our USGA handicaps which includes, but is not limited to our league scores.  Seeding was based only on our best 3 gross league scores regardless of which tees we played (some had a choice depending on their handicaps).

[David in FL]

Men's Championship should be gross, stroke play.  All from the same set of tees.  Different flights, split by handicap and net stroke play are fine, but there's only one Club Champion.

And there can/should be a completely different match play championship.  Ultimately, gross stroke play reigns though.....

[meenman]

At our club, the champions that get the parking spots are gross from the back tees for the non-seniors and gross from the whites for the seniors.

The rest of us play with our handicap from our normal tees - we can win serious cash, but no parking spot.

The key is, everyone has to choose which tees they are playing from - you play from the whites with handicap and shoot a 59, you can not be the overall champion.

You will see guys changing which tees they signed up for based on who else is playing.

[vangator]

  MS256 said:

To me "the club champion" signifies the best player at the club. No handicaps. They can have other flights for handicap players and they can win their respective flights but they aren't [SIZE=14px] the [/SIZE] club champion. I always ended up in the championship flight without a snowball's chance in Hell of winning but I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. I would have felt silly getting strokes and being called club champion over people that could beat me on any day.

+1

[BuckeyeNut]

Every private club championship that I've played in is a scratch event.    They began with a stroke play qualifier.  This is to narrow the field to see who earns the right to play match play and seed match play rounds............ then play match play elimination rounds determine the club champion.   The championship flight is all scratch and it should be if you are going to crown a Club Champ.

Lets not forget Flights...........  Players are flighted by HC and play a scratch qualifier.  The results are then broken down into flights based on HC, but the competition is scratch within each flight.  Flights exist so the entire membership can participate in the event.

I've played in a few public course club championships too.  The ones I have entered are all scratch stroke play events open to the public.   I've played in events where the winner earned an annual pass for the next season!!!!  I've stopped playing in them because they attract high level college golfers that win all the prizes.  These kids aren't even members or regulars at the course and they mop up the prices........ I'm not competitive against these guys so I quit playing in them.  I can play the course for free anyway, so why am I going to pay $50 to enter so I can pay for their prizes?  LOL

[saevel25]

I know for the club championship for the Miami Valley Golf Association you need a Ghin handicap.

[BuckeyeNut]

  saevel25 said:

I know for the club championship for the Miami Valley Golf Association you need a Ghin handicap.

Very true...........I think just about every handicapped event worth a salt requires an official GHIN HC.   All the big State and National AM scratch events definitely require one....if only to limit the field to low HC players.  These organizations need to keep the RIFF-RAFF out of these prestigious events..LOL