Chella Choi Cheating. What is the LPGA doing about it?

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Doctorfro said:

OK, she moved her ball. Wrong on all counts.  Viewer call in....absolutely wrong.  If you were watching an NBA game and they missed a call, say a guy stepped OB, you can't call in and have that affect the game.  It doesn't work that way.  If the rules guy following them around misses the call, he misses the call!  Or a playing partner, or a caddie.  This call in crap has got to stop.

You are wrong on this.  The referee's responsibility is somewhat different in golf than it is in most other sports.  He is there more as a resource for information on the rules when the players need it than he is to call penalties.  He will speak up if he observes a breach, but he isn't necessarily watching every act of each player.

[Doctorfro]

7 hours ago, Fourputt said:

You are wrong on this.  The referee's responsibility is somewhat different in golf than it is in most other sports.  He is there more as a resource for information on the rules when the players need it than he is to call penalties.  He will speak up if he observes a breach, but he isn't necessarily watching every act of each player.

Maybe that's not his "responsibility" but I would rather see someone like that make the call rather than some random person intervening. It's not right. 

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, Doctorfro said:

Maybe that's not his "responsibility" but I would rather see someone like that make the call rather than some random person intervening. It's not right. 

I disagree. In fact, it's more right than letting an obvious and known violation go unpenalized.

In other words, which is more "right":

• A: A player commits a violation and is not penalized because people either didn't notice or know it was a violation.
• B: A player commits a violation and is correctly given the resulting penalty.

B is "more right" IMO.

[newtogolf]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

I disagree. In fact, it's more right than letting an obvious and known violation go unpenalized.

In other words, which is more "right":

• A: A player commits a violation and is not penalized because people either didn't notice or know it was a violation.
• B: A player commits a violation and is correctly given the resulting penalty.

B is "more right" IMO.

B is more right, A is more fair.  

[natureboy]

23 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

B is more right, A is more fair.  

In the Choi case, I don't agree. Only the player can attest to their intentions, but her actions don't pass my sniff test. I don't think it was 'careless'.

If it had been a 'careless' type infraction (visible to the 'naked eye') that the player, competitors, and RO just didn't observe, I think it would be right and fair to still assess it after the fact with the call-in information, but not fair to subject the player so penalized after the round to a DQ for signing incorrect scorecard.

IMO in the Chella Choi case or any such blatant cheating, they could still have DQ'd her if she didn't WD under a gross violation of 13-2 or possibly 1-2.

Edited July 25, 2016 by natureboy

[Golfingdad]

9 hours ago, Doctorfro said:

OK, she moved her ball. Wrong on all counts.  Viewer call in....absolutely wrong.  If you were watching an NBA game and they missed a call, say a guy stepped OB, you can't call in and have that affect the game.  It doesn't work that way.  If the rules guy following them around misses the call, he misses the call!  Or a playing partner, or a caddie.  This call in crap has got to stop.

I generally agree with you that the call-in stuff for infractions in unnecessary and unfair.  And your NBA analogy works in that regard, IMO.  Stepping out of bounds is an infraction.  There being a 51% chance that you inadvertently moved your ball (DJ) is an infraction.  Accidentally grazing 3 grains of sand in a bunker (Nordqvist) is an infraction.

But if you go back and watch the video of this one (I posted it on the first page, in fact) you should find that this wasn't your garden variety infraction, this was blatant cheating.  She marked a 15" putt, picked the ball up about 1/2" off the ground and immediately placed it back on the ground (after slightly rotating it) about an inch to the left of where she picked it up from.  There was nothing inadvertent or accidental about this one.

A better team sports analogy to this would be if they caught a pitcher doctoring a ball on video after the fact.  They won't go back and undo the outs he got, but they'll definitely kick him out of the game, suspend him for more, and fine him a bunch of money.  They could have easily kicked her out of the tournament, or even the tour for a time, like they did with Simon Dyson (oddly enough, I can see an argument where his infraction could have been inadvertent).

EDIT:  Sorry, didn't see that @natureboy beat me to it.

[newtogolf]

5 minutes ago, natureboy said:

In the Choi case, I don't agree. Only the player can attest to their intentions, but her actions don't pass my sniff test. I don't think it was 'careless'.

If it had been a 'careless' type infraction (visible to the 'naked eye') that the player, competitors, and RO just didn't observe, I think it would be right and fair to still assess it after the fact with the call-in information, but not fair to subject the player so penalized after the round to a DQ for signing incorrect scorecard.

IMO in the Chella Choi case or any such blatant cheating, they could still have DQ'd her if she didn't WD under a gross violation of 13-2 or possibly 1-2.

I wasn't referring specifically to Choi's infraction, btw I agree with you.  I was referring to the overall fairness of call in violations.  

[natureboy]

2 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I wasn't referring specifically to Choi's infraction, btw I agree with you.  I was referring to the overall fairness of call in violations.  

Overall, I think they're annoying, but I can see some of the merit provided they were otherwise visible to the naked eye and don't then result in DQ for signing wrong scorecard (unless blatant cheating). Basically on the fence with those caveats. Without those caveats, I'd agree with you.

[Pretzel]

43 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

B is more right, A is more fair.  

That depends. If the player knew they broke the rule and refused to penalize themselves hoping nobody would notice then B is definitely still "more fair". 

Even if the player didn't know about the penalty, B is still the "more fair" outcome. The rules remain the same even if you are ignorant of them. It's a golfer's responsibility to know all of the rules and accept the penalty when it comes to light that they broke one of them, regardless of who saw the infraction. 

The only exceptions to this would be something where there was no possible way for a player to know they had broken a rule or to have prevented themselves from breaking said rule. Stuff like a ball that moved seemingly without cause while the person takes their backswing (think Dustin Johnson, but if the ball moved during his putting stroke by the single dimple), or a freak gust of wind causing the player to lose balance and contact their ball.

Obvious caveat, but this applies primarily to tournaments and money games. You are in no way obligated to follow the rules to a T unless you are competing with others.

[newtogolf]

6 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

That depends. If the player knew they broke the rule and refused to penalize themselves hoping nobody would notice then B is definitely still "more fair". 

Even if the player didn't know about the penalty, B is still the "more fair" outcome. The rules remain the same even if you are ignorant of them. It's a golfer's responsibility to know all of the rules and accept the penalty when it comes to light that they broke one of them, regardless of who saw the infraction. 

The only exceptions to this would be something where there was no possible way for a player to know they had broken a rule or to have prevented themselves from breaking said rule. Stuff like a ball that moved seemingly without cause while the person takes their backswing (think Dustin Johnson, but if the ball moved during his putting stroke by the single dimple), or a freak gust of wind causing the player to lose balance and contact their ball.

Obvious caveat, but this applies primarily to tournaments and money games. You are in no way obligated to follow the rules to a T unless you are competing with others.

The thing is we established in the other threads regarding rules and video is that professional golfers don't know all the rules and you can't be certain (unless it's completely blatant) if someone is ignorant of the rules or intentionally trying to cheat.  

Spoiler

Not every golfer is under the scrutiny of the television cameras so with regards to fair application of the rules, it's less fair to allow call-ins since not every shot of every golfer is televised.  

 

[natureboy]

20 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

You are in no way obligated to follow the rules to a T unless you are competing with others.

Or submitting a score for official HCP, yes?

[Pretzel]

13 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

 You can't be certain (unless it's completely blatant) if someone is ignorant of the rules or intentionally trying to cheat.  

  Reveal hidden contents

Not every golfer is under the scrutiny of the television cameras so with regards to fair application of the rules, it's less fair to allow call-ins since not every shot of every golfer is televised.  

 

It doesn't matter. Either way it's a rule, and ignorance is NOT an acceptable excuse for breaking the rules. 

It's literally their job to know the rules. If they don't perform their job well, by not knowing the rules, then the consequence is that they get penalized for breaking them in the same way that a bartender who doesn't ID customers would be penalized (though the penalties take different forms). It doesn't matter if they didn't know it was against the rules, because ignorance is not an excuse.

As for the issue with less-publicized players receiving fewer call-ins, this is a potential slight to those in the spotlight. It doesn't, however, affect a golfer who acts within the rules. If you follow the rules there is no disadvantage to having every shot of your televised in terms of call-in couch officials. Play by the rules - don't get penalized.

1 minute ago, natureboy said:

Or submitting a score for official HCP, yes?

That would be correct, the thought slipped my mind when I wrote that.

[newtogolf]

4 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

It doesn't matter. Either way it's a rule, and ignorance is NOT an acceptable excuse for breaking the rules. 

It's literally their job to know the rules. If they don't perform their job well, by not knowing the rules, then the consequence is that they get penalized for breaking them in the same way that a bartender who doesn't ID customers would be penalized (though the penalties take different forms). It doesn't matter if they didn't know it was against the rules, because ignorance is not an excuse.

That would be correct, the thought slipped my mind when I wrote that.

I was responding to your statement where you covered the instance where a pro golfer intentionally broke the rule.  

Quote

That depends. If the player knew they broke the rule and refused to penalize themselves hoping nobody would notice then B is definitely still "more fair". 

I agree it's their job to know the rules but you made the differentiation and I was pointing out that you can't be certain what they know and don't.  

Clearly at Oakmont, DJ and his playing partner didn't know grounding your club to the side of the ball was considered grounding of the club.  

[Pretzel]

16 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Clearly at Oakmont, DJ and his playing partner didn't know grounding your club to the side of the ball was considered grounding of the club.  

It wasn't considered grounding his club. It was determined that him setting the club down in such close proximity to the ball is what caused the ball to eventually move, similar to how jumping up and down next to the hole can cause a golf ball to tip into the hole. It's a bit off-topic though.

The point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't matter who sees it, the pro still broke a rule. It's completely unfair to not penalize them when it is known that a rule breach has occurred. 

[iacas]

FWIW, this thread is not about video review or call-ins.

On August 26, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Shorty said:

It's about that.

[Shindig]

15 hours ago, natureboy said:

Or submitting a score for official HCP, yes?

Actually, no.  There are rules for submitting a score for HCP purposes, but they aren't the same as the full Rules of Golf.  Things like "most likely score" are in there -- in a non-tournament round for handicap purposes, if you're left with a tap-in for par (for example), you can pick it up and write the par.  You can't do that in a tournament. 

[natureboy]

6 minutes ago, Shindig said:

Actually, no.  There are rules for submitting a score for HCP purposes, but they aren't the same as the full Rules of Golf.  Things like "most likely score" are in there -- in a non-tournament round for handicap purposes, if you're left with a tap-in for par (for example), you can pick it up and write the par.  You can't do that in a tournament. 

Good point. I was thinking more along the lines of if you want the score you make on the hole to count for HCP purposes it should be under the ROG, else you are obligated to use the other scoring procedures.

[Doctorfro]

I get that this sport is different than most in that a player calls penalties on themselves.  And it goes without question that this girl committed an egregious penalty.  But if this was so blatant as many have pointed out, why didn't someone who was on that green or around it, say something? You're telling me that only the camera man was able to view this and therefore the viewers at home?  I can take you back through game film of thousands of basketball or football games and show you intentional fouls or penalties that weren't called that affected the outcome of the game.  The NBA and NFL on numerous occasions have come back after the fact and said "hey, we missed that one".  But they don't alter the outcome or issue a do over.  I get that some of you are so tied to the integrity of the game that you feel it doesn't matter how it gets called but that's where we differ.  I completely believe in integrity of the game but some random fan should not be able to call in and affect the outcome of ANY sporting event.  

And my two cents: what should the LPGA do about blatant cheating?  Fines and suspensions, just like other pro sports.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Doctorfro