Chella Choi Cheating. What is the LPGA doing about it?

[natureboy]

18 minutes ago, Doctorfro said:

I get that this sport is different than most in that a player calls penalties on themselves.  And it goes without question that this girl committed an egregious penalty.  But if this was so blatant as many have pointed out, why didn't someone who was on that green or around it, say something? You're telling me that only the camera man was able to view this and therefore the viewers at home?  I can take you back through game film of thousands of basketball or football games and show you intentional fouls or penalties that weren't called that affected the outcome of the game.  The NBA and NFL on numerous occasions have come back after the fact and said "hey, we missed that one".  But they don't alter the outcome or issue a do over.  I get that some of you are so tied to the integrity of the game that you feel it doesn't matter how it gets called but that's where we differ.  I completely believe in integrity of the game but some random fan should not be able to call in and affect the outcome of ANY sporting event.  

And my two cents: what should the LPGA do about blatant cheating?  Fines and suspensions, just like other pro sports.

The sport is also a bit different in the ratio of players to officials as well as the relative area of ground each official has to keep track of.

[Golfingdad]

20 minutes ago, Doctorfro said:

I get that this sport is different than most in that a player calls penalties on themselves.  And it goes without question that this girl committed an egregious penalty.  But if this was so blatant as many have pointed out, why didn't someone who was on that green or around it, say something? You're telling me that only the camera man was able to view this and therefore the viewers at home?  I can take you back through game film of thousands of basketball or football games and show you intentional fouls or penalties that weren't called that affected the outcome of the game.  The NBA and NFL on numerous occasions have come back after the fact and said "hey, we missed that one".  But they don't alter the outcome or issue a do over.  I get that some of you are so tied to the integrity of the game that you feel it doesn't matter how it gets called but that's where we differ.  I completely believe in integrity of the game but some random fan should not be able to call in and affect the outcome of ANY sporting event.  

And my two cents: what should the LPGA do about blatant cheating?  Fines and suspensions, just like other pro sports.

If you read some of the other similar threads on this type of topic you'll quickly find that I'm definitely not one of those who "is so tied to the integrity of the game etc etc ..." but I simply feel that obvious CHEATING is so very different than the other types of "call in" calls.

[jkelley9]

1 hour ago, Doctorfro said:

I get that this sport is different than most in that a player calls penalties on themselves.  And it goes without question that this girl committed an egregious penalty.  But if this was so blatant as many have pointed out, why didn't someone who was on that green or around it, say something? You're telling me that only the camera man was able to view this and therefore the viewers at home?  I can take you back through game film of thousands of basketball or football games and show you intentional fouls or penalties that weren't called that affected the outcome of the game.  The NBA and NFL on numerous occasions have come back after the fact and said "hey, we missed that one".  But they don't alter the outcome or issue a do over.  I get that some of you are so tied to the integrity of the game that you feel it doesn't matter how it gets called but that's where we differ.  I completely believe in integrity of the game but some random fan should not be able to call in and affect the outcome of ANY sporting event.  

And my two cents: what should the LPGA do about blatant cheating?  Fines and suspensions, just like other pro sports.

Firstly, I feel there's a problem with the term cheating being so loosely whipped around.

The players that are flopping in soccer/basketball, etc. are trying to take advantage and take a risk of being caught in order to score over the other team and ultimately win. I feel like what Choi did is no different. But you don't call basketball players "cheaters" who "should be ejected and banned from the game."

Yes, there is a higher standard for morals, ethics, and integrity in "the game of golf" that we try to hold on to. I'm a big fan of growing integrity and trust in people as a whole. But did Choi really giver herself a huge advantage? No. Spike mark or not from 15 inches... there was maybe a fraction of 1% percentage added miss chance there if there was one. Not that that makes what she did any better... 

Secondly, to all the people with a huge stink on her on the side of giving her a massive fine, a temporary ban, etc... I don't agree. Sure, it's sad that people will break a rule like that and hope they aren't caught. She may not be the best example of good character. But gimme a break. She should be penalized, per the rules of golf, and we should move on. Unlike other sports she lost so much face for this smalllllll make-chance increase. Unlike an intentional foul in basketball that not only CAN hurt another player, but is forgotten literally seconds after the fact.

Thirdly, if we're comparing apples to apples in the world of sports when it comes to fines and suspensions... ask yourself what equal infractions in other sports would yield the same punishments you're recommending? Football: intentionally injuring another player, inappropriate discussions with a ref, etc, Soccer: repeated red cards maybe? I dunno much about soccer lol. But bottom line, those types of things are typically ATTACKS to individuals in the field. Choi didn't attack anyone, she gave herself an infinitesimally small added chance to make a 15" putt. That's way lower down the totem pole than intentional fouling in my opinion. Maybe had she kicked another player's ball from the fairway into the water and tried to get away with it... it might be a little closer. But that's obviously not what happened here.

Of course, like I said, I wish all of these flopping and what Choi did would go away. I wish people had more integrity than that. I sure as hell would never feel I won had I won by ANY margin knowing that I had broken a rule in the slightest.

 

I'm aware this happened long ago, but I wasn't big into watching golf at that time so this thread was a nice read after-the-fact :)

[newtogolf]

8 hours ago, jkelley9 said:

Firstly, I feel there's a problem with the term cheating being so loosely whipped around.

The players that are flopping in soccer/basketball, etc. are trying to take advantage and take a risk of being caught in order to score over the other team and ultimately win. I feel like what Choi did is no different. But you don't call basketball players "cheaters" who "should be ejected and banned from the game."

Yes, there is a higher standard for morals, ethics, and integrity in "the game of golf" that we try to hold on to. I'm a big fan of growing integrity and trust in people as a whole. But did Choi really giver herself a huge advantage? No. Spike mark or not from 15 inches... there was maybe a fraction of 1% percentage added miss chance there if there was one. Not that that makes what she did any better... 

Secondly, to all the people with a huge stink on her on the side of giving her a massive fine, a temporary ban, etc... I don't agree. Sure, it's sad that people will break a rule like that and hope they aren't caught. She may not be the best example of good character. But gimme a break. She should be penalized, per the rules of golf, and we should move on. Unlike other sports she lost so much face for this smalllllll make-chance increase. Unlike an intentional foul in basketball that not only CAN hurt another player, but is forgotten literally seconds after the fact.

Thirdly, if we're comparing apples to apples in the world of sports when it comes to fines and suspensions... ask yourself what equal infractions in other sports would yield the same punishments you're recommending? Football: intentionally injuring another player, inappropriate discussions with a ref, etc, Soccer: repeated red cards maybe? I dunno much about soccer lol. But bottom line, those types of things are typically ATTACKS to individuals in the field. Choi didn't attack anyone, she gave herself an infinitesimally small added chance to make a 15" putt. That's way lower down the totem pole than intentional fouling in my opinion. Maybe had she kicked another player's ball from the fairway into the water and tried to get away with it... it might be a little closer. But that's obviously not what happened here.

Of course, like I said, I wish all of these flopping and what Choi did would go away. I wish people had more integrity than that. I sure as hell would never feel I won had I won by ANY margin knowing that I had broken a rule in the slightest.

 

I'm aware this happened long ago, but I wasn't big into watching golf at that time so this thread was a nice read after-the-fact :)

How about Tom Brady's 4 game suspension without pay for his involvement in deflategate, partial and season long suspensions without pay for PED's use in most sports, immediate ejection and multi-game suspensions for doctoring a baseball by a pitcher.  

Typically fouls or activities that give you a competitive advantage, no matter how big or small come with the stiffest penalties.  

[Fourputt]

@jkelley9 - If you think that a spike mark doesn't matter, go back and look at Phil Mickelson's putt on the 18th hole for a 62 at Troon.  It hits a spike mark or similar defect and kicks to the right only 6 inches from the hole, dead against the break, to go from being center cut to a lip out.  That was at least a 2 inch divergence from the path the ball was on.  

What Choi did was blatant, was clearly to gain some sort of advantage, and was just about as egregious as anything I've ever seen on a golf course in a competition at any level.  Considering that she is playing professionally, she needs to be held to the highest standard, and a suspension would be none too harsh a penalty to send a message to her and to any other player who might have a similar thought, that such acts will not be tolerated, now or ever.

[dave s]

I've read articles about the millennial set and how they feel about cheating.  From high school kids using electronic devices to cheat on tests to (apparently) cheating at golf, millennials believe its not cheating unless you get CAUGHT. And even when caught, they won't acknowledge they've done anything wrong.

And I blame parents of these kids for not teaching simple lessons of honesty and integrity during their formative years.

Glad the golfer was 'outed' and forced to withdraw.  As you read in the articles, she didn't actually ACCEPT the penalty, just chose the WD route.  Probably because she didn't acknowledge the discretion as in any way 'cheating.'

dave

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

@jkelley9 - If you think that a spike mark doesn't matter, go back and look at Phil Mickelson's putt on the 18th hole for a 62 at Troon.  It hits a spike mark or similar defect and kicks to the right only 6 inches from the hole, dead against the break, to go from being center cut to a lip out.  That was at least a 2 inch divergence from the path the ball was on.  

What Choi did was blatant, was clearly to gain some sort of advantage, and was just about as egregious as anything I've ever seen on a golf course in a competition at any level.  Considering that she is playing professionally, she needs to be held to the highest standard, and a suspension would be none too harsh a penalty to send a message to her and to any other player who might have a similar thought, that such acts will not be tolerated, now or ever.

Agreed - but in this case I would argue that it's not so much about the actual advantage gained, it's about the intention.

[Aflighter]

Was there even  spike mark in her line? Maybe she thought she can mark her ball anywhere in front of the marker.

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Aflighter said:

Was there even  spike mark in her line? Maybe she thought she can mark her ball anywhere in front of the marker.

If that was the case, then she's not only a cheater but a moron as well.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Fourputt said:

@jkelley9 - If you think that a spike mark doesn't matter, go back and look at Phil Mickelson's putt on the 18th hole for a 62 at Troon.  It hits a spike mark or similar defect and kicks to the right only 6 inches from the hole, dead against the break, to go from being center cut to a lip out.  That was at least a 2 inch divergence from the path the ball was on.

It's off topic, but there was no spike mark, and Phil said himself he knew it went back to the right at the end. Heck, for it to have been a spike mark someone would have had to step (and make a mark) six inches from the cup.

Off topic, but… no spike mark or other blemish.

[jkelley9]

3 hours ago, Fourputt said:

@jkelley9 - If you think that a spike mark doesn't matter, go back and look at Phil Mickelson's putt on the 18th hole for a 62 at Troon.  It hits a spike mark or similar defect and kicks to the right only 6 inches from the hole, dead against the break, to go from being center cut to a lip out.  That was at least a 2 inch divergence from the path the ball was on.  

What Choi did was blatant, was clearly to gain some sort of advantage, and was just about as egregious as anything I've ever seen on a golf course in a competition at any level.  Considering that she is playing professionally, she needs to be held to the highest standard, and a suspension would be none too harsh a penalty to send a message to her and to any other player who might have a similar thought, that such acts will not be tolerated, now or ever.

I don't want to do the math here, but a putt from 15 inches with a (repaired) spike mark in the way can't decrease the chance of a make by more than 1% of the base chance. My point is that the advantage gained I equate to being less than that of a personal foul in another sport.

2 hours ago, dave s said:

I've read articles about the millennial set and how they feel about cheating.  From high school kids using electronic devices to cheat on tests to (apparently) cheating at golf, millennials believe its not cheating unless you get CAUGHT. And even when caught, they won't acknowledge they've done anything wrong.

And I blame parents of these kids for not teaching simple lessons of honesty and integrity during their formative years.

Glad the golfer was 'outed' and forced to withdraw.  As you read in the articles, she didn't actually ACCEPT the penalty, just chose the WD route.  Probably because she didn't acknowledge the discretion as in any way 'cheating.'

dave

I don't know if that's directed at Choi (who I believe was 23 at the time) or at myself, but that's a pretty large net you're casting. I do understand statistics, so when 99% of a "group of people" do a certain thing, have a certain thing, what have you, I can get why people will stereotype. But the statement you've made is pretty big and frankly, outlandish. 

Yes, there may be a generational increase in the frequency of this type of (poor) behavior. But your phrasing is indicating a majority of SOME kind, and if that's your intention then I would have to say that's quite ignorant. It may be worse now, but it's most certainly not the majority of all millennials. Whatever "article(s)" you may have read I would ALMOST automatically dismiss the author right off the bat. 

Also I've yet to read a response that differentiates what Choi did versus other athletes that intentionally commit a personal foul:

1. What they do is INTENTIONAL

2. What they do is PREMEDITATED

3. What they do creates a COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE

4. What they do can also be a PERSONAL INFRACTION against another player, increasing their chances of injury (which Choi does not come even close to doing) 

The difference between what those players do and what is happening here, in my belief, is Choi's attitude towards the whole thing and yes, her lack of integrity. Moving one's ball intentionally as Choi did HAS a penalty involved. She was issued that penalty. That does NOT warrant a suspension, fine, etc. That's ridiculous. 

Deflategate is a POOR example. Because deflating footballs does not have a hard-and-fast penalty written in the rules. Therefor it goes to the committee and they deem the punishments for such an act. Also, in terms of magnitude, that's an advantage that is present THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE GAME and I believe the committee came to their punishment decision based on the magnitude of the potential impact towards their competitive advantage and also probably to make a statement in an attempt to shy people away from even thinking about doing something "of this nature" again.

I get what you're saying in terms of it being a sad state of affairs when we are determining penalties for these types of "cheating" behaviors, we should make them stiffer because cheating is such an ugly thing. But ALL of the things I've mentioned would fall under the "cheating" umbrella. What's frustrating me is why y'all don't think intentionally personal fouling in basketball, holding in the backfield of football, intentionally grabbing a players face mask to prevent a touchdown, etc. are ANY different IF NOT WORSE than what Choi did (CHEATING), yet you want to hold her to some blistering level of punishment/penalty?

[Golfingdad]

44 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

What's frustrating me is why y'all don't think intentionally personal fouling in basketball, holding in the backfield of football, intentionally grabbing a players face mask to prevent a touchdown, etc. are ANY different IF NOT WORSE than what Choi did (CHEATING), yet you want to hold her to some blistering level of punishment/penalty?

The difference is simple:  In those team sports, there are referees that attempt to watch everybody at all times and its a given nature of the sport that all of the players are trying to gain an edge.  If it's something they're doing on the field and they get away with it, then they succeeded.

Golf does not have referees following all of the players like hawks to call fouls - players are expected to police themselves - so cheating is very easy for the unscrupulous and a huge no-no.  If you want to compare it to things in team sports with referees, compare it to things that those guys do when they aren't being watched by the referees; steroids, corking bats, that sort of thing.

---

I happen to be one of the people here that thinks the video review/viewer call-in stuff in regards to inadvertent infractions is unnecessary and unfair, but not when it comes to intentional cheating.

[iacas]

Why did this come up again after 2014, anyway?

[jkelley9]

26 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

The difference is simple:  In those team sports, there are referees that attempt to watch everybody at all times and its a given nature of the sport that all of the players are trying to gain an edge.  If it's something they're doing on the field and they get away with it, then they succeeded.

Golf does not have referees following all of the players like hawks to call fouls - players are expected to police themselves - so cheating is very easy for the unscrupulous and a huge no-no.  If you want to compare it to things in team sports with referees, compare it to things that those guys do when they aren't being watched by the referees; steroids, corking bats, that sort of thing.

---

I happen to be one of the people here that thinks the video review/viewer call-in stuff in regards to inadvertent infractions is unnecessary and unfair, but not when it comes to intentional cheating.

So it's okay to cheat in team sports so long as you don't get caught. And if you do get caught, you're quickly assessed a penalty and everyone moves on... where's the integrity there?

I get the whole "referee yourself, play to a high degree of integrity" but give me a freaking break. It's not like she kicked another player's ball in the water while off camera. She barely gave herself a competitive advantage at all. 

I'm really getting tired of these rules of golf that are so freaking minuscule, I can see why people turn away from golf.

I get that I'm not a golf expert, I'm far, far from it. But placing you ball on the same side of the coin (you know what I mean), still touching the coin, no closer the hole... what a freaking penalty, man! I'm trying to grasp at straws here on where one instance may have occurred where it warranted that this type of rule be put in place to begin with.

Don't misunderstand me, I will always play to the rules of golf to the best of my abilities/knowledge because I (a millennial) hold myself to a high degree of integrity. Whether I think some rules are dumb or not, I always play by them. 

[Golfingdad]

14 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

So it's okay to cheat in team sports so long as you don't get caught. And if you do get caught, you're quickly assessed a penalty and everyone moves on... where's the integrity there?

I get the whole "referee yourself, play to a high degree of integrity" but give me a freaking break. It's not like she kicked another player's ball in the water while off camera. She barely gave herself a competitive advantage at all. 

I'm really getting tired of these rules of golf that are so freaking minuscule, I can see why people turn away from golf.

I get that I'm not a golf expert, I'm far, far from it. But placing you ball on the same side of the coin (you know what I mean), still touching the coin, no closer the hole... what a freaking penalty, man! I'm trying to grasp at straws here on where one instance may have occurred where it warranted that this type of rule be put in place to begin with.

Don't misunderstand me, I will always play to the rules of golf to the best of my abilities/knowledge because I (a millennial) hold myself to a high degree of integrity. Whether I think some rules are dumb or not, I always play by them. 

The merit of this particular rule itself is an entirely different discussion.  Whether or not she actually gained an advantage is also irrelevant.  She plays a game that REQUIRES that the player police themselves and, as such, any act to INTENTIONALLY subvert the rules should be dealt with harshly.  The only argument in her defense with any merit at all here, IMO, is if you believe that she moved the ball accidentally.

[jkelley9]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

The merit of this particular rule itself is an entirely different discussion.  Whether or not she actually gained an advantage is also irrelevant.  She plays a game that REQUIRES that the player police themselves and, as such, any act to INTENTIONALLY subvert the rules should be dealt with harshly.  The only argument in her defense with any merit at all here, IMO, is if you believe that she moved the ball accidentally.

I'm agreeing with you on all those accounts. She did something bad. I just don't understand why people think it should go above and beyond the stated penalty? 

[Fourputt]

10 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

So it's okay to cheat in team sports so long as you don't get caught. And if you do get caught, you're quickly assessed a penalty and everyone moves on... where's the integrity there?

I get the whole "referee yourself, play to a high degree of integrity" but give me a freaking break. It's not like she kicked another player's ball in the water while off camera. She barely gave herself a competitive advantage at all. 

I'm really getting tired of these rules of golf that are so freaking minuscule, I can see why people turn away from golf.

I get that I'm not a golf expert, I'm far, far from it. But placing you ball on the same side of the coin (you know what I mean), still touching the coin, no closer the hole... what a freaking penalty, man! I'm trying to grasp at straws here on where one instance may have occurred where it warranted that this type of rule be put in place to begin with.

Don't misunderstand me, I will always play to the rules of golf to the best of my abilities/knowledge because I (a millennial) hold myself to a high degree of integrity. Whether I think some rules are dumb or not, I always play by them. 

You sure are trying hard to defend her.  When she pulls a stunt like she did here, how are we to know what she may or may not have done in the past which was never caught?  That is the real issue here.  Activities in those other sports are irrelevant.  

It's unlikely that there is a single person in the US playing football or basketball who hasn't gotten away with committing a foul, whether accidental or deliberate.  That is on the heads of the officials, not the player.  It's different game, different atmosphere - it's not even considered cheating.  Actual cheating in those sports is limited mostly to using PED's or illegal equipment, because the player is not responsible for knowing and following the rules.  

In golf, the responsibility for playing by the rules is placed on the player.  Even when there is a walking referee with a group, he is not there to call fouls like a referee or umpire in other sports.  He assumes, just as the rules do, that the player will play the game honorably.  He observes the play of the contestants much more casually than the umpire in a baseball game does.  With 3 players (or even with only 2 players) in a group, the odds are that he is at least 40 or 50 yards away from at least one of the players during a stroke.  Even around the green he'll be 40 or 50 feet away, so something done surreptitiously like Choi did wouldn't be likely to be noticed.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

I'm agreeing with you on all those accounts. She did something bad. I just don't understand why people think it should go above and beyond the stated penalty? 

Because, unlike the other sports, the players are effectively their own umpires or referees or rules officials, too (not by definition, but I think you know what I mean).

That's not really the case in any other sport.