Lowest Effective Loft of a Pitching Wedge?

[onthehunt526]

A lot of companies have decided that in their GI and SGI lines to enlist in the decreasing loft disease... meaning their lofts are much stronger than the past... Taylormade has not went lower than 45° with their PW yet... supposedly Cobra went to 43 in the 90s but since has retreated a little to 44°... Tour Edge won't go below 45°, David Glod knows what he's doing... I think the average golfer would actually benefit from slightly more loft in their irons... I'm not going to say traditional (51° PW)... but between 45-47° I think in GI and SGI irons, because the weight and length is going to determine distance not a 1-2° difference in loft... I just would like to know what The Sand Trap Universe thinks, what do you think the lowest effective loft on a PW would be? My opinion that in a vacuum number 45 sounds good to me, but I think any lower than 44° forces you almost to buy 2 clubs to gap the PW SW gap...:

[saevel25]

A lot of companies have decided that in their GI and SGI lines to enlist in the decreasing loft disease... meaning their lofts are much stronger than the past...

Taylormade has not went lower than 45° with their PW yet... supposedly

Cobra went to 43 in the 90s but since has retreated a little to 44°...

Tour Edge won't go below 45°, David Glod knows what he's doing...

I think the average golfer would actually benefit from slightly more loft in their irons... I'm not going to say traditional (51° PW)... but between 45-47° I think in GI and SGI irons, because the weight and length is going to determine distance not a 1-2° difference in loft...

I just would like to know what The Sand Trap Universe thinks, what do you think the lowest effective loft on a PW would be?

My opinion that in a vacuum number 45 sounds good to me, but I think any lower than 44° forces you almost to buy 2 clubs to gap the PW SW gap...:

Even though the number specified is the measured loft. It is no way the actual delivered loft. Also, lower CG in those irons make the lofts play higher as well. So it might be written as 44 degrees, but a much lower CG can add a few degrees, and it will actually play closer to a 46 degree.

The trend over the years has been to lower the CG, and lower the loft. This is why the stronger irons can be labelled as "High Launching".

Lets look at an example,

From golfworks, which has up to date published Maltby Factors.

Taylormade Tour Preferred 6 iron loft and COG is, 30 degrees, and 0.915 inches

Taylormade Speed Blade 6 iron, 27 degrees and 0.763 inches.

The COT for a Speed Blade is 0.152 inches higher on the face.

I will tell you the Tour Preferred will launch lower, and fly lower even though it is 3 degrees higher loft.

I will agree that lower lofted wedges have created the "Gap" wedge. That is one way to tell if the set has stronger lofts, if there is another wedge offered between the PW and SW.

Still, in the end, you are buying the same set up. Who cares if you don't have a 4 iron anymore, and you go from Gap Wedge to 5 iron in your iron set. It still covers the same distances and provides good club yardage gaps. All it is is different labeling.

[Mr. Desmond]

I'm comfortable with 45 as a so-called PW, and then going 50-55-60. One day, I'd like to have a 47-52-57-62 (or +1)  setup for fun. Have always though the ideal LW for doing everything around the greens is 58, But a higher loft such as a 62 would also be fun.

[David in FL]

I don't care what's engraved on the sole of the club.  It can say "9" or "P".  I don't care.  All I worry about is that I know how far that I hit that particular club and that I have gaps between clubs that work for my game.

If the lofts are so strong that I end up with 5 "wedges" and my longest iron is a "6", but that complement of irons covers the same overall yardage, with the same gaps, as a set with 4 "wedges" and a 5-iron, why would anything else matter?

Just for @Shorty .......i t is what it is.

[Slice of Life]

Mine is 45 degrees...so that's what I consider the loft of a PW to be. :)

[Tee2Trees]

Wilson broke the mold with their Di9 irons.

http://www.wilson.com/dyn/golf/ws_specs/usa/di9.asp

Comes with a 42.5 degree PW, so they offered 2 gap wedges to fill the gap -- a 46 degree A and a 49.5 degree G (notice this still leaves a big loft gap unless you use a 54 degree SW).  Also, the shafts are longer than standard by at least 0.5".  So basically, it's a mis-numbered set of irons that have upright lie angles.

[Patch]

Loft #s are just a number that the golfer may or may not need to know, to know when to use them.  This loft # goes this far, and that loft # goes that far. Knowing the carry of a certain loft is primary, and the roll out is secondary. This is assuming the golfer reaches for a 45* loft instead of just reaching for their PW for a given distance. Can you imagine a golfer asking their caddy for a 45* club, instead of just asking for their PW?

I also suspect that more than a few golfers don't use all of the effective, stated loft on their clubs as it is.

In my case I could not tell you, with out looking, what the lofts are on my various clubs. I do know what the carry yardage is on them, based on the their given identifier 9i, 7i,  5i,  etc.... or what ever is stamped on them. As for the yardage gaps between clubs that I might be faced with, I just choke up, or down on a certain club fill that particular yardage gap.

IMHO manufacturers, over the years have manipulated the lofts of the same clubs for the purpose of increased revenue. The golfer (end user) sees a yardage gap, and runs out and buys the club to fill that gap. Then after filling that gap, with their new club, that golfer has to decide what club to leave out of their bag to conform with the 14 club rule.

[mvmac]

A lot of companies have decided that in their GI and SGI lines to enlist in the decreasing loft disease... meaning their lofts are much stronger than the past...

IMHO manufacturers, over the years have manipulated the lofts of the same clubs for the purpose of increased revenue. The golfer (end user) sees a yardage gap, and runs out and buys the club to fill that gap. Then after filling that gap, with their new club, that golfer has to decide what club to leave out of their bag to conform with the 14 club rule.

Most if not all the OEM's that offer GI irons offer a gap (or A wedge) wedge with the set, 4-G instead of 3-P.

It's not a "disease" and it's not "manipulating" things. Guys, think of how these clubs are designed, wide soles with the weight low and back. They're designed to get the ball UP in the air. These clubs can be more advantageous for mid/higher handicap golfers because they'll see more of a distance separation from club to club. It's a common complaint for that segment of golfer that they hit they hit their mid/short irons about the same distance . Tweaking the lofts with a club designed to hit the ball high can help with that.

[Pretzel]

The pitching wedge of my S55's is a 46* one, and I can certainly notice a gap between it and my gap wedge. There's about a 15-20 yard zone in which I'll either try to hit a hard gap wedge or a shorter pitching wedge (usually I go with the short pitching wedge) because it's a 6 degrees difference. However I find this to be a non-issue other than the fact that my pitching wedge gets hit quite a bit.

[WUTiger]

I don't care what's engraved on the sole of the club.  It can say "9" or "P".  I don't care.  All I worry about is that I know how far that I hit that particular club and that I have gaps between clubs that work for my game. ...

Part of the decision on selecting wedge lofts depends on how the different clubs fly.

When I switched out clubs last, I played briefly with X20 irons (45* PW) and next X20 Tour irons (46* PW).

I then got Cleveland CG14 specialty wedges. I thought I might need a 52* because the GW shaft was the same length as the X20 PW. But, distance tests showed that the 50* CG was better. The X20 and X20 Tour irons simply had hotter faces than the CGs, and the 52* left too much of a gap.

Also, you just have to try out the clubs and see how far they fly.

I got to test out the SLDR irons, which feature a 46* PW and a 51* AW; both have a 35.5" shaft. But, the clubs have a noticeable gap in distance, possibly due to internal head designs. Club designers sometimes tweak the heads of wedges to keep the distance gaps more even. Again, you just have to hit the clubs and see what the gaps are.

The irons I played from 1994 to 2008 (Ping Eye2 clones) had a 44* 9i, a 50* PW, and a 56* SW. Again, distance gaps between the cubs were pretty even.

Also, shaft lengths between wedges vary more than in the past. In specialty wedges (G, S and L), you often have 1/4" or even 1/8" between types of wedges. This contrasts with the normal 1/2" shaft length difference between numbered irons, but this can increase a bit in the longer irons.

Again, spec sheets and hitting tests will show you the actual gaps.

[lumpuckeroo]

I think if you get any stronger than 45, it becomes difficult to fill the gaps.

[SoundandFury]

Wilson broke the mold with their Di9 irons.

http://www.wilson.com/dyn/golf/ws_specs/usa/di9.asp

Comes with a 42.5 degree PW, so they offered 2 gap wedges to fill the gap -- a 46 degree A and a 49.5 degree G (notice this still leaves a big loft gap unless you use a 54 degree SW).  Also, the shafts are longer than standard by at least 0.5".  So basically, it's a mis-numbered set of irons that have upright lie angles.

That's not a pitching wedge/super gap/gap wedge, that's a 9 iron, PW and GW.  Is that just so people can say they hit their PW 150 yards?

[onthehunt526]

That's not a pitching wedge/super gap/gap wedge, that's a 9 iron, PW and GW.  Is that just so people can say they hit their PW 150 yards?

I agree on that... after doing some more research, as I have stated in other threads, I'm buying the fact that the decreasing loft disease is actually the "prescription" for lower CG and Hot Faces and such... Now I'm going to resurrect the thread the right way... As advanced as technology in especially SGI and UGI Irons in I'll even say in this... CENTURY, with the perimeter weighting and low CG... MOI all that jazz... With all those factors covered what do you guys think the lowest effective static loft of the PW will be, when they get the CG as low as it can possibly go... and the MOI max has been reached...

[saevel25]

As advanced as technology in especially SGI and UGI Irons in I'll even say in this... CENTURY, with the perimeter weighting and low CG... MOI all that jazz... With all those factors covered what do you guys think the lowest effective static loft of the PW will be, when they get the CG as low as it can possibly go... and the MOI max has been reached...

Unless some new materials, they are getting very very close to the lowest CG possible. Also it has to match with the iron set. So I think it doesn't matter. Right now the key to building iron sets is to allow the maximum distance possible in the long irons that maintain proper yardage gaps. From there they build the set to match proper gaps. So in the end a PW is locked in there.

Lets say they move the CG low enough so that a 4 iron has a static loft of 18 degrees. That would mean you would end up with something like,

4iron: 18

5iron: 21

6iron: 24

7iron: 28

8iron: 32

9iron: 36

PW: 41

GW: 46

AW: 51

Really you would end up with a new wedge. It just isn't possible to maintain a proper 7-8 iron set with out putting in a new wedge. Since the constraint on the golf set is 14 clubs, it doesn't matter what the lofts are because clubs are made to create proper gaps. In the end it works out.

[onthehunt526]

Unless some new materials, they are getting very very close to the lowest CG possible. Also it has to match with the iron set. So I think it doesn't matter. Right now the key to building iron sets is to allow the maximum distance possible in the long irons that maintain proper yardage gaps. From there they build the set to match proper gaps. So in the end a PW is locked in there.  Lets say they move the CG low enough so that a 4 iron has a static loft of 18 degrees. That would mean you would end up with something like, 4iron: 18 5iron: 21 6iron: 24 7iron: 28 8iron: 32 9iron: 36 PW: 41 GW: 46 AW: 51 Really you would end up with a new wedge. It just isn't possible to maintain a proper 7-8 iron set with out putting in a new wedge. Since the constraint on the golf set is 14 clubs, it doesn't matter what the lofts are because clubs are made to create proper gaps. In the end it works out.

Think your right on the PW not moving much, because you're almost forcing someone to deal with another gap, so the decreasing loft is more at the top or the middle of the set, slowly... I think they've decided amongst themselves that 44° is about the lowest loft you can effectively have a PW... even with the CGs getting lower... I don't see lofts in SGI/UGI clubs getting much lower... you might see a 20-22.5-25.5 4-5-6 irons or something, they might see if five degree gaps work like 7-the wedges (Tour Edge does this with all the XCG(1 thru 7 all inclusive) and E8, Bazooka Max-D, Max-D45, and Hot Launch)

[00dannyboy]

you can put a "p" on any club in your bag and think of it as "pitching" the ball. the real bottom line is this: youre allowed to have 14 clubs, one will be a putter, one will be a wood, probably two woods though. that means 11 clubs will be "irons." (or some hybrids) start with 20 degrees and go thru 64 degrees and make sure you evenly distribute how many degrees per club the differences will be, and presto! you have a set of irons. if they let us have 45 clubs, then we'd all have 42 irons with 1 degree difference between them. then we'd complain about why we couldnt have 0.5 degree differences between each club. or we'd pull out the 37, hit the shot 17 yards short and then complain about why we have so many irons to choose from. try this: take two thirds of your irons out of your bag and go to the range and learn to hit all the distances between each iron. youll soon realize, that 14 irons is a luxury that gives you plenty of accuracy and makes you lazy.

[TimS65]

you can put a "p" on any club in your bag and think of it as "pitching" the ball. the real bottom line is this: youre allowed to have 14 clubs, one will be a putter, one will be a wood, probably two woods though. that means 11 clubs will be "irons." (or some hybrids) start with 20 degrees and go thru 64 degrees and make sure you evenly distribute how many degrees per club the differences will be, and presto! you have a set of irons. if they let us have 45 clubs, then we'd all have 42 irons with 1 degree difference between them. then we'd complain about why we couldnt have 0.5 degree differences between each club. or we'd pull out the 37, hit the shot 17 yards short and then complain about why we have so many irons to choose from. try this: take two thirds of your irons out of your bag and go to the range and learn to hit all the distances between each iron. youll soon realize, that 14 irons is a luxury that gives you plenty of accuracy and makes you lazy.

I think you make some very good points here. That's why I quite like the idea of "stronger" irons, as by default they will spread the gaps between the clubs and give greater distance gaps between them. This is possibly better for the average recreational golfer as "we" aren't accurate enough to rely on 8 yard gaps between irons anyway. I quite like the 15 yard gaps between my wedges 70, 85 and 100 for 60, 56 and 52 deg.

[bmumper]

My PW plays at 44.  I had the clubs bent to where I wanted them to be.  I wasnt getting the right gap between my clubs.  Essentially now I have a PW that plays like a 9 iron, a 9 iron that plays like an 8 iron and so on.   As long as I can hit them the distance that I want I dont care what club it is or what it says on the bottom.