"Correct" pace of play

[newtogolf]

A. b/c they walk

B. they have to play honors (I think)

C. they have to spend 5min looking for their ball

D. they do take too much time on and around the greens

E. they have to use yardage books

They could easily shave 30min off of their rounds by riding alone (probably closer to an hour); take another 15min off if they had gps/laser; another 20min around the greens; that's 1 to 1.5hrs right there.

If you read the other posts here, people claim those in carts are slower than walkers.  The rest of the arguments are lame;

1. There are a lot more patrons and officials to watch where an errant shot goes for the pro's than us hacks.
2. Honors is only required during match play
3. Courses are marked, not that hard to figure out distances even without a yardage book or laser.  Doesn't take that long to open a book and check a yardage distance.

I'm not comparing pro's to us, I get they are playing for a lot of tournament money just pointing out that despite their lower number of shots and walking they take longer than most of us deem tolerable.

[newtogolf]

Also beside the point: pros are far, far too slow too. They have excuses ("we're playing for a lot of money") but that doesn't change that they are slow too. They're not a model for anything. They too are slow.

My thoughts exactly, how does the USGA and PGA expect to speed up play when the pro's take less shots and play so much slower than we are expected to.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

Yes they do. The Rules of Golf say that if you're farthest away you play first. They'll skip it sometimes (someone in a close bunker will blast before someone with a long putt, etc.) but that's about it.

They don't have forecaddies.

Not really very many more, no. And when they make a six-footer that an am misses, the am just taps in. Hardly takes that much more time.

Beside the point.

Also beside the point: pros are far, far too slow too. They have excuses ("we're playing for a lot of money") but that doesn't change that they are slow too. They're not a model for anything. They too are slow.

He said they have to play honors. From everything I have seen that's not the case. Otherwise, if I am keeping a handicap wouldn't that mean I would have to as well to follow the rules of golf.

Well maybe they aren't called forecaddies but what would you call the tournament workers who stick a flag in the ground right next to their ball. I call it a forecaddie even if they are doing the hole and not following the group.

Maybe you putt better than I do.

They are slow for sure. They don't even play foursomes. Only tourney I have gone to I watched Sergio Garcia on a hole and wanted to yell "hit the f'ing ball"

[Lihu]

The pro's walk, have someone carry their bag and are the best players (i.e. take the fewest shots per round)  in the world and I've never seen one finish a round in under 4 hours during a televised tournament.  I realize they are playing for millions of dollars but they take at least 20 less shots per round than I do!   I've also watched college tournaments where the average round took well over 4.5 hours.

If the top level players don't play in under 4 hours how do you expect a 36 handicap hack who hits every other ball in the woods to finish in 4 hours?

I tend to agree that a 4 hour round is a lot more relaxing too, 3:30 is a little less than relaxing and under 3:00 is uncomfortably fast walking so a cart is pretty much mandatory for many of us.

The 3 hour round sounds more like a workout rather than golf. A quick calculation starting with the fact that our electric carts travel about 10mph reveals and that we have about 8000 yards of course travel, yields that 28 minutes is dedicated to just the forward movement. If you shoot 90 (6700-6800 yards of playing distance) that leaves you about 2.55 hours to setup and shoot all your shots. That's a little over a 00:01:42 per shot, which includes walking (running) up to your ball and also finding it if it's lost. It also includes split second decisions if a ball requires a drop. This might possibly include speed reading through the rules book.

Many times a fast round can be had by going just before sunset. At the moment, if you get there at 4:30pm and play to the last bit of light, you should be able to get 18 holes in with a 3 hour round.

Maybe golfers who want fast play times should all go out late? They can also jump holes ahead of other players with a golf cart.

[CarlOwen]

they are playing for millions of dollars, you are not.

Second, the pro's actually synthesize and need to process lot of information along with the caddie, whereas standing around and wondering if you're going to hit a good shot accomplishes nothing.

Even though I am a 12 handicap, I couldn't possibly find much of what the Pro and caddie discuss useful or appropriate with my skill level. To illustrate, if you are a novice tennis player, could you realistically be able to comprehend and put into practice serve advice from Roger Federer's coach? I contend it would be mostly meaningless.

This is why the pros take so long.  We just have to select the right club, and hopefully make good contact and carry on.

[MS256]

They are slow for sure. They don't even play foursomes. Only tourney I have gone to I watched Sergio Garcia on a hole and wanted to yell "hit the f'ing ball"

When we went to the LPGA tournament a couple of weeks ago we followed a couple of former Alabama golfers for a few holes (just because we are Alabama fans and they did win a National Championship).

OMG!!! They were slooooooow!

I told my son that I just realized how they won a championship.

They went so slow that they drove the other teams nuts or the other teams went to sleep between shots.

[newtogolf]

they are playing for millions of dollars, you are not.

Second, the pro's actually synthesize and need to process lot of information along with the caddie, whereas standing around and wondering if you're going to hit a good shot accomplishes nothing.

Even though I am a 12 handicap, I couldn't possibly find much of what the Pro and caddie discuss useful or appropriate with my skill level. To illustrate, if you are a novice tennis player, could you realistically be able to comprehend and put into practice serve advice from Roger Federer's coach? I contend it would be mostly meaningless.

This is why the pros take so long.  We just have to select the right club, and hopefully make good contact and carry on.

Really?  So pro's have so much information to process they can't possibly play in the same time a non-pro is expected to?

When does this transition occur, -5, 0, +5 handicap because I would hate to get to the point where I need to number crunch a ton of data with someone before I can select a club and hit my shot.

[Dave2512]

IMO the only reason tour golf should be mentioned in this thread is the amateur fools that emulate it on the course. Even then nothing takes longer than searching for errant shots and the bad shots that follow when a casual golfer gets out of position. Everything else that goes with it, misuse of carts, bizarre behavior etc. is a side-effect or just plain ignorance.

[iacas]

He said they have to play honors.

This is what you want to discuss?

They do, 99% of the time, because the Rules of Golf say they should.

Point remains I am not sure why the pros are part of the conversation. They don't deserve to be.

[Slice of Life]

Point remains I am not sure why the pros are part of the conversation. They don't deserve to be.

I agree. I watch the NBA...but when I play basketball, I don't take 5 undribbled steps toward the rim before my layup and then complain to the refs because somebody touched me...

Blaming slow play on people emulating PGA players is weak at best. I played in a slow foursome a couple weeks ago...none of the other 3 guys watch golf. They were just slow and wouldn't stop bullshitting and mulling/walking over 2.5 footers.

[Lihu]

they are playing for millions of dollars, you are not.

Second, the pro's actually synthesize and need to process lot of information along with the caddie, whereas standing around and wondering if you're going to hit a good shot accomplishes nothing.

Even though I am a 12 handicap, I couldn't possibly find much of what the Pro and caddie discuss useful or appropriate with my skill level. To illustrate, if you are a novice tennis player, could you realistically be able to comprehend and put into practice serve advice from Roger Federer's coach? I contend it would be mostly meaningless.

This is why the pros take so long.  We just have to select the right club, and hopefully make good contact and carry on.

This takes time, and is most likely what the caddy and pro-player are discussing. Otherwise, I'm not sure what else they need to talk about.

When we went to the LPGA tournament a couple of weeks ago we followed a couple of former Alabama golfers for a few holes (just because we are Alabama fans and they did win a National Championship).

OMG!!! They were slooooooow!

I told my son that I just realized how they won a championship.

They went so slow that they drove the other teams nuts or the other teams went to sleep between shots.

Slow, but good.

Really?  So pro's have so much information to process they can't possibly play in the same time a non-pro is expected to?

When does this transition occur, -5, 0, +5 handicap because I would hate to get to the point where I need to number crunch a ton of data with someone before I can select a club and hit my shot.

I think most of us do this either consciously or instinctively.  You don't crunch the data at the time of play, but before with a "playbook" or a strategy. If you know the course, then it might be mentally ingrained and more instinctive.

Better golfers I have seen have better strategies, they don't guess.

You and I could already be at the point where we could benefit from this, like reading/applying LSW.

[newtogolf]

This is what you want to discuss?

They do, 99% of the time, because the Rules of Golf say they should.

Point remains I am not sure why the pros are part of the conversation. They don't deserve to be.

They are a reference point.   We don't have galleries to rush to our ball when we hit it off the fairway and we take a lot more shots than they do.  Even if we pick the ball up at double par it's twice the number of swings a pro takes but we are expected here to finish in 4 hours.

The push to increase the sports popularity with new players is at odds with guys here that expect everyone to play in under 4 hours, I don't see how it's going to happen.

This takes time, and is most likely what the caddy and pro-player are discussing. Otherwise, I'm not sure what else they need to talk about.

Slow, but good.

I think most of us do this either consciously or instinctively.  You don't crunch the data at the time of play, but before with a "playbook" or a strategy. If you know the course, then it might be mentally ingrained, and more instinctive.

Better golfers I have seen have better strategies, they don't guess.

You could already be at the point where you could benefit from this.

I have a strategy but it doesn't take me 5+ minutes to discuss it with someone.  I consider my yardage and weather factors then select a club, takes 20 seconds max.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

This is what you want to discuss?

They do, 99% of the time, because the Rules of Golf say they should.

Point remains I am not sure why the pros are part of the conversation. They don't deserve to be.

Well it was what I answered in the post you responded to. Plus it has been posted a couple times on this thread on what make golfers slow. I don't agree with always playing honors and I will just hit when ready but I just answered what you responded to.

Not directed to you but just in general, even if pros play for millions it doesn't mean they need to be slower. If I am gambling where I can lose $70-$100 should I be allowed to play slower POP on a public course? And don't say that isn't much money because if you do it twice a weekend and are paying $60-$70 a pop to play golf and then lose an extra $75 both days try telling your spouse $300 for the weekend golf really isn't that much.

[iacas]

They are a reference point

I don't consider them to be one.

Well it was what I answered in the post you responded to. Plus it has been posted a couple times on this thread on what make golfers slow. I don't agree with always playing honors and I will just hit when ready but I just answered what you responded to.

And the truth is they play honors the vast majority of the time. Do you disagree?

Not directed to you but just in general, even if pros play for millions it doesn't mean they need to be slower.

I agree. But we aren't talking with PGA Tour pros here. Let's worry about ourselves is my suggestion.

[Lihu]

They are a reference point

I have a strategy but it doesn't take me 5+ minutes to discuss it with someone.  I consider my yardage and weather factors then select a club, takes 20 seconds max.

At Whispering Woods in Erie, @CarlSpackler and I were playing in a foursome with @cipher and @saevel25 .

On one Par5 I went wild off the tee, but they looked at the situation and concluded that I should hit a shot 125 yards and it might run 10 to 20 yards, but would put me in a good position for my next shot. They measured the distances to where I was and to the point where it would most benefit me. I hit exactly the shot they suggested, and it put me in a great position for my GIR shot. Of course, I 3 putted for a bogie and had a net par.

The fact is, this took about 3 minutes, and was an invaluable learning experience for me .

The better players really spend the time needed figure out what is the best strategy.

If we were simply rushing, the ball could have easily have gone OB.

[Dave2512]

It's really not relevant to this thread and not really about tour purses. Pros are slow because they have the ability to hit precise shots to small targets. They are talking about everything from weather and conditions to how the ball might react when it hits the target. None of that matters to most of us and really not a factor in slow play.

[CarlOwen]

IMO the only reason tour golf should be mentioned in this thread is the amateur fools that emulate it on the course. Even then nothing takes longer than searching for errant shots and the bad shots that follow when a casual golfer gets out of position. Everything else that goes with it, misuse of carts, bizarre behavior etc. is a side-effect or just plain ignorance.

BINGO

It's blatantly obvious that some here have no clue the enormous differences there exists between a Pro and a weekend hacker.

What some are trying to say, to illustrate yet another analogy- is that a Grandmaster chess player should be able to make a decision at the same rate of speed as the occasional player, because, it's really all the same.

This is naive.

[Lihu]

BINGO

It's blatantly obvious that some here have no clue the enormous differences there exists between a Pro and a weekend hacker.

What some are trying to say, to illustrate yet another analogy- is that a Grandmaster chess player should be able to make a decision at the same rate of speed as the occasional player, because, it's really all the same.

This is naive.

The Grandmaster is way faster than the casual player, unless the casual player is making random nonsensical moves.

Great analogy, BTW.