Would you play a non-conforming (illegal) driver?

[Big C]

By definition, a non-conforming club is disallowed. To use one is cheating. It's really not any more complicated than that.

Ok. It's disallowed for......what exactly? A casual round with me and my buddies??? No, not really........

It's disallowed for a competition played under the rules of golf? Yes absolutely.

A scramble? Well, I'm really not sure.

I'm glad you feel it's that black and white, but I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Lihu]

[quote name="Big C" url="/t/79650/would-you-play-a-non-conforming-illegal-driver/108#post_1101261"] Do you think the two actions that I mentioned in my prior post would constitute cheating in a scramble? I don't, but apparently you do (edit: apparently conferring on a club is ok - I stand corrected). Therefore my logic is that there is no clear de-lineation between what rules of golf apply and which do not. It's up to the organizer to outline the scramble rules, and most organizers don't outline much more than the basics, leaving lots of room for gray. As a result, I think it would be a stretch to call someone a cheater if they elected to use a non conforming club.

By definition, a non-conforming club is disallowed. To use one is cheating. It's really not any more complicated than that.[/quote] I presume you mean in a competitive situation? It's not like if we're playing and golf cops come by and arrest us? ;-)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big C

Do you think the two actions that I mentioned in my prior post would constitute cheating in a scramble? I don't, but apparently you do (edit: apparently conferring on a club is ok - I stand corrected).

Therefore my logic is that there is no clear de-lineation between what rules of golf apply and which do not. It's up to the organizer to outline the scramble rules, and most organizers don't outline much more than the basics, leaving lots of room for gray. As a result, I think it would be a stretch to call someone a cheater if they elected to use a non conforming club.

By definition, a non-conforming club is disallowed. To use one is cheating. It's really not any more complicated than that.

I presume you mean in a competitive situation?

It's not like if we're playing and golf cops come by and arrest us?

Yep.  And last time I looked, a scramble was a competition.

[colin007]

Yep.  And last time I looked, a scramble was a competition.

Agreed, but there's no R&A; of scrambles. A scramble =/= golf.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Yep.  And last time I looked, a scramble was a competition.

Agreed, but there's no R&A; of scrambles. A scramble =/= golf.

You play on a golf course with golf clubs and a golf ball.  The object is to move the ball from the teeing ground to the hole by making strokes.  So, what about that isn't golf?

[colin007]

You play on a golf course with golf clubs and a golf ball.  The object is to move the ball from the teeing ground to the hole by making strokes.  So, what about that isn't golf? :blink:

You play HORSE on a basketball court shooting a basketball through a hoop, but you're not playing basketball. And like I said, does the R&A; govern scrambles?

[Golfingdad]

So, what about that isn't golf?

I like @colin007 's answer, but I'll take a crack at this as well .... The mulligans, the string, the college kids that are hitting your drive for you on the par 5's if you donate $10, the ability to turn a par 5 into a 200 yard par 3 if you buy enough raffle tickets, the fact that there can be teams with 4 guys with a handicap lower than 5 playing straight up against teams all with handicaps higher than 20, and basically any other type of "help" that the organizer can dream up to get more donations for whatever charity is hosting the tournament.

Like @Big C said ... a scramble does not equal golf.  It's just fun.

EDIT:  I'm getting my Colins mixed up ... 007 said that too. ;)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You play on a golf course with golf clubs and a golf ball.  The object is to move the ball from the teeing ground to the hole by making strokes.  So, what about that isn't golf?

You play HORSE on a basketball court shooting a basketball through a hoop, but you're not playing basketball.

And like I said, does the R&A; govern scrambles?

I Know nothing about the R&A.;  Where I live the USGA governs play.  The USGA does not recognize the scramble format, but that doesn't mean that there are no rules.  There are rules governing HORSE too.  The point of horse is the same as basket ball, put the ball through the hoop.  1 on 1, 3 on 3 are different from NBA or NCAA basketball too, but they are all still basketball, and all are governed by a set of rules.  Some of the rules are different, but many are not.  The same is true of the scramble format in golf.

I don't  get it.  There must be a dozen threads on this site where everyone bitches about cheating in scrambles, and now your guys jump out of the closet and not only condone it, but actively lobby in favor of it.  Where the hell did you all learn your morals at, where cheating is okay as long as you are just doing it because you're following the example of others?  I'm just thankful I never had to play with or against any of you in any of the scrambles I've competed in.  I know for a fact that no team I've ever been on cheated in any way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

So, what about that isn't golf?

I like @colin007's answer, but I'll take a crack at this as well .... The mulligans, the string, the college kids that are hitting your drive for you on the par 5's if you donate $10, the ability to turn a par 5 into a 200 yard par 3 if you buy enough raffle tickets, the fact that there can be teams with 4 guys with a handicap lower than 5 playing straight up against teams all with handicaps higher than 20, and basically any other type of "help" that the organizer can dream up to get more donations for whatever charity is hosting the tournament.

Like @Big C said ... a scramble does not equal golf.  It's just fun.

I played in one or two that did stupid crap like that, just corporate outings.  Even then those are still the rules or conditions of the competition .  That doesn't make it "Not Golf" - just makes it different golf.

My men's club plays a 5 man scramble every spring to kick off the season, and none of that silliness applies.  They are always played under the rules of golf as far as the general format allows.  We place the balls not selected within one scorecard of the selected ball, which is played down, and otherwise all of the rules of golf apply.

[David in FL]

Ok. It's disallowed for......what exactly? A casual round with me and my buddies??? No, not really........

It's disallowed for a competition played under the rules of golf? Yes absolutely.

A scramble? Well, I'm really not sure.

I'm glad you feel it's that black and white, but I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Simple.....it's disallowed under the rules of golf, and competition has nothing to do with it.

People talk about competitive golf because, for casual golfers, that tends to be the only time that a lot of rules are enforced and infractions are penalized.  But, the rules exist even if you're just playing by yourself.  If you choose not to play by the rules when goofing around with your buddies, that's up to you.  No golf police, no castigation.  But just because someone chooses to break rules when they're playing a game/sport, and in their group there aren't any consequences for doing so, doesn't mean that the rules don't exist.  Carry 20 clubs, don't accept stroke and distance, swap balls, ask/give advice, improve your lie, whatever........have fun.  But don't argue that because you and/or others choose to ignore certain rules that they don't exist.

[colin007]

I Know nothing about the R&A.;  Where I live the USGA governs play.  The USGA does not recognize the scramble format, but that doesn't mean that there are no rules.  There are rules governing HORSE too.  The point of horse is the same as basket ball, put the ball through the hoop.  1 on 1, 3 on 3 are different from NBA or NCAA basketball too, but they are all still basketball, and all are governed by a set of rules.  Some of the rules are different, but many are not.  The same is true of the scramble format in golf.   I don't  get it.  There must be a dozen threads on this site where everyone bitches about cheating in scrambles, and now your guys jump out of the closet and not only condone it, but actively lobby in favor of it.  Where the hell did you all learn your morals at, where cheating is okay as long as you are just doing it because you're following the example of others?  I'm just thankful I never had to play with or against any of you in any of the scrambles I've competed in.  I know for a fact that no team I've ever been on cheated in any way. I played in one or two that did stupid crap like that, just corporate outings.  Even then those are still the rules or conditions of the competition .  That doesn't make it "Not Golf" - just makes it different golf.   My men's club plays a 5 man scramble every spring to kick off the season, and none of that silliness applies.  They are always played under the rules of golf as far as the general format allows.  We place the balls not selected within one scorecard of the selected ball, which is played down, and otherwise all of the rules of golf apply.

Your club scramble is nothing like the average, "regular" scramble, which @Golfingdad described perfectly. What he described is the typical experience, which can barely be described as golf. I've been cheated out of prizes. Guess what, life goes on. Nobody died.

[Pretzel]

There's a difference to me between a scramble and a "scramble", with the latter usually being hosted by a charity as a fundraiser. Scrambles can be a fun spin on competition that takes pressure off the individual and spreads it across the team. I've played in these with some high school golf friends and lost with a 58 by a stroke. "Scrambles" involve string, mulligans, hand grenades etc. They're usually events just for fun and fundraising for a good cause. I go with prior who aren't great golfers to have a good time. The winner usually spends around $300 and ends up marking a 46 or something as their score. I just accept the entry fee in these fun events as a donation and treat them as a competitive practice round to see how many holes the team can use only my shots on.

[Fourputt]

There's a difference to me between a scramble and a "scramble", with the latter usually being hosted by a charity as a fundraiser.

Scrambles can be a fun spin on competition that takes pressure off the individual and spreads it across the team. I've played in these with some high school golf friends and lost with a 58 by a stroke.

"Scrambles" involve string, mulligans, hand grenades etc. They're usually events just for fun and fundraising for a good cause. I go with prior who aren't great golfers to have a good time. The winner usually spends around $300 and ends up marking a 46 or something as their score. I just accept the entry fee in these fun events as a donation and treat them as a competitive practice round to see how many holes the team can use only my shots on.

And this is a great way to approach it, but it doesn't mean that a scramble isn't a competition and doesn't have rules.  Just because a "scramble" adds silliness like strings and mullies doesn't make using illegal clubs right.  Unless of course the rules for that particular competition state that they are okay, something I've never run across.  Every scramble I've ever played in still had the rules of golf in effect as far as was possible considering the nature of a scramble in the first place.  That includes charity and corporate outings, and it really doesn't matter if some team chats to win a penny ante prize.

I'd usually assume that the people who post on this site had more integrity than that, but maybe I was giving too much credit.

[newtogolf]

You play HORSE on a basketball court shooting a basketball through a hoop, but you're not playing basketball.

And like I said, does the R&A; govern scrambles?

I've never seen someone play HORSE using a smaller basketball than his competitor.   If your competing for prizes you're still obligated to play by the rules of the scramble.  If they don't explicitly permit non-conforming equipment and you use it then you are breaking the rules.

Most scrambles have longest drive competitions, a golfer using a non-conforming driver and golf balls is cheating if they aren't permitted.

[colin007]

Look, in my experience, a scramble is basically a free for all. As an example, and heading off topic, there was a local scramble that ended up in people getting arrested for prostitution and solicitation. They were "playing holes" in between holes. Anyways, I have never played in a scramble thinking it was anything other than a chance to get drunk and have fun. I play a distance ball off the tee and a tour ball around the greens. Big whoop. @Fourputt , I also go over the speed limit, sneak snacks into the movie theater that I brought from home, and lie to the car salesman when he asks if I'm trading in anything.

[Pretzel]

And this is a great way to approach it, but it doesn't mean that a scramble isn't a competition and doesn't have rules.  Just because a "scramble" adds silliness like strings and mullies doesn't make using illegal clubs right.  Unless of course the rules for that particular competition state that they are okay, something I've never run across.  Every scramble I've ever played in still had the rules of golf in effect as far as was possible considering the nature of a scramble in the first place.  That includes charity and corporate outings, and it really doesn't matter if some team chats to win a penny ante prize.   I'd usually assume that the people who post on this site had more integrity than that, but maybe I was giving too much credit.

The thing is, charity scrambles are won by the team that spends the most money, period. That's just how those are set up. I wouldn't care if anyone used non conforming clubs in such an event. I wouldn't, for the reasons I've previously stated, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if someone else did. If the club isn't even a factor in the team winning, why would you care that they did it? That's like if a tour pro won a tournament, but people found out he'd been speeding to get to the course every day. Yeah, it's not allowed per the rules, but it doesn't affect the outcome of the competition in any way. If it's used on a long drive hole by someone who could otherwise not out drive me, yeah I'll be a bit upset, but I haven't seen any prize large enough that it would really matter to me. The best prize I ever saw was a dozen golf balls for the longest dive, and they weren't the kind I play so it wouldn't have mattered.

[newtogolf]

The thing is, charity scrambles are won by the team that spends the most money, period. That's just how those are set up. I wouldn't care if anyone used non conforming clubs in such an event. I wouldn't, for the reasons I've previously stated, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if someone else did.

If the club isn't even a factor in the team winning, why would you care that they did it? That's like if a tour pro won a tournament, but people found out he'd been speeding to get to the course every day. Yeah, it's not allowed per the rules, but it doesn't affect the outcome of the competition in any way.

If it's used on a long drive hole by someone who could otherwise not out drive me, yeah I'll be a bit upset, but I haven't seen any prize large enough that it would really matter to me. The best prize I ever saw was a dozen golf balls for the longest dive, and they weren't the kind I play so it wouldn't have mattered.

There are different types of scrambles, some are interclub, some are for charity.  In either case, there are still rules.  In the case of charity scrambles, the scramble officials decide how they wish to raise money which may include the ability for teams to "purchase advantages".  There are still rules in such a scramble and unless they permit non-conforming equipment you're cheating the other teams using non-conforming equipment and cheating the charity by using an advantage that doesn't yield the charity any additional income.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

And this is a great way to approach it, but it doesn't mean that a scramble isn't a competition and doesn't have rules.  Just because a "scramble" adds silliness like strings and mullies doesn't make using illegal clubs right.  Unless of course the rules for that particular competition state that they are okay, something I've never run across.  Every scramble I've ever played in still had the rules of golf in effect as far as was possible considering the nature of a scramble in the first place.  That includes charity and corporate outings, and it really doesn't matter if some team chats to win a penny ante prize.

I'd usually assume that the people who post on this site had more integrity than that, but maybe I was giving too much credit.

The thing is, charity scrambles are won by the team that spends the most money, period. That's just how those are set up. I wouldn't care if anyone used non conforming clubs in such an event. I wouldn't, for the reasons I've previously stated, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if someone else did.

If the club isn't even a factor in the team winning, why would you care that they did it? That's like if a tour pro won a tournament, but people found out he'd been speeding to get to the course every day. Yeah, it's not allowed per the rules, but it doesn't affect the outcome of the competition in any way.

If it's used on a long drive hole by someone who could otherwise not out drive me, yeah I'll be a bit upset, but I haven't seen any prize large enough that it would really matter to me. The best prize I ever saw was a dozen golf balls for the longest dive, and they weren't the kind I play so it wouldn't have mattered.

Sorry, but no matter how you try to justify it, cheating is cheating.  My personal sense of ethics and fair play says it's wrong, regardless of how you rationalize it.  To me, it's just not that long a step from cheating in scrambles to sandbagging your handicap and otherwise cheating to win a buck from your buddies.  A cheat is a cheat is a cheat.

@colin007 I drive over the limit too, but only the 5 or so that the traffic cops give me.  I haven't had a ticket in 35 years.  I don't sneak anything in to the theater, because that is ethically wrong too.  You are basically stealing from them. They don't make their money on the admission price, only on the concessions.  When I go, which isn't that often, I go for the experience, including the fun of the big bucket of popcorn and large soda.

[Elmer]

Mos

There are different types of scrambles, some are interclub, some are for charity.  In either case, there are still rules.  In the case of charity scrambles, the scramble officials decide how they wish to raise money which may include the ability for teams to "purchase advantages".  There are still rules in such a scramble and unless they permit non-conforming equipment you're cheating the other teams using non-conforming equipment and cheating the charity by using an advantage that doesn't yield the charity any additional income.

Most the scrambles I play are either for charity or organized by a friend. Either way at the end of the day the charity or organizer/promoter makes their money on the scramble and they dont really care which drunk bends the rules. I have seen the worst fall down drunks collect their sleeve of balls for shooting a 18 under, when in fact they were the group infront of me and they were lucky to get off the tee.

I dont usually equate Scrambles with integrity and honesty.

really dont most of us expect that someone at a scramble is playing by their own rules.?

Typical scrambe is filled with hackers, who pull out 20 year old, rusted, outdated clubs that they use once a year. They usually have their own cooler or keg and are out there to have fun.

That being said, I try to keep it as close to the book as possibly and within what the organizer allows. organizer requires us to switch tee for different holes, to take a mulligan, to use a string, SO what? This is not for handicap, this is for fun and most everyone else on the course is playing by "these" rules!

now I have been in a 4some that boogies a hole and the score keeper tried to write down a par. That is not OK with me. You want a par, score one!