The Tiger Woods/PED Thread

[9iron]

Since there actually isn't any evidence that he's taken PED's, I voted no. No evidence with his physique, no claims by other players, trainers, journalist, etc. I also haven't heard any rumors/gossip from instructors I know that teach on tour.

I said "no" since there is nothing to point to the fact that he used PED's.  He worked out but he did not blow up like a Barry Bonds or Mark McGuire.  He was reckless in his personal life that has forever tarnished his image as a Mr. Nice Guy, but I believe his concern about his golf legacy helped keep him free of PEDs.

Despite my (irrational?) dislike of the persona that is Woods, there's no evidence that he's used PEDs.......is there?? OK, he bulked quite a bit at one point but nothing that wouldn't tally with simple gym use.

Just out of interest, why did the OP pose this question? Is there something out there on this topic other than the long-standing and completely unsubstantiated suggestions??

There is direct evidence that Tiger had an ongoing relationship with Dr. Galea and his assistant Dr. Lindsay. There is also direct evidence that Galea is a PED dispenser. A convicted PED dispenser at that, and that Galea's intended targets for his PED dispensing are competitive athletes.

Tiger's relationship with Galea then is circumstantial evidence of PED use. Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact. Direct evidence that it snowed In Pennsylvania early Tuesday would be the testimony of someone who watched the snow actually fall, but indirect evidence would be the appearance of fresh snow itself.

You "addressed" his concerns by saying basically "I don't believe him." So you're putting your own opinion over the opinion of someone (Hank Haney) who was THERE and who states without a question that Tiger was not injected with anything but his own platelets.

Originally Posted by Rick Martin

Hank Haney, Woods' former swing coach, who has been one of Woods' most vocal critics since they stopped working together in 2010, told the Golf Channel that he never saw anything out of the ordinary in Galea's treatment of Woods.

"I was there and watched the whole procedure," Haney said. "There was never anything that went into Tiger Woods's body that didn't come out of his body. They take blood out, they spin it, they inject the plasma back in. I totally believe that Tiger Woods has never taken any performance-enhancing drugs."

The whole thing about what Haney saw or did not see is a non starter. Woods saw Galea or his assistant 70+ times. By his own account Haney watched a few of those interactions only, so he has no direct knowledge at all what happened the other 66 times.

There are other troubling aspects to this that nobody ever mentions. One full round of PRP treatments, the treatments Tiger claims to have been seeing Galea for, is two to three weeks. Let's assume Tiger is on the very short end of the range, two weeks. Then he'd see Galea or Lindsay every two weeks. Get a shot, re evaluate in two weeks, get a 2nd shot, re evaluate in 2 more weeks (continue). He saw those guys for like a year, or maybe a year and a half. That would be 35 to 40 rounds of treatments. Hard to believe anyone would continue with something that many times.

Also, pretty much every decent Ortho practice in Central Florida does PRP on site. My own Ortho doctor here in Pennsylvania has suggested I do a series (meaning 3 to 4) of PRP treatments. So why does Tiger feel the need to leave all the top notch doctors in Florida who have the ability to treat him, and when he makes that decision, why does he then choose an obscure Canadian doctor with a history of dispensing PED's? If Tiger wanted to make people believe he was taking PED's, he succeeded. His fan base is seemingly impervious to the circumstial evidence surrounding Tiger and PED's.

[Golfingdad]

There is direct evidence that Tiger had an ongoing relationship with Dr. Galea and his assistant Dr. Lindsay.

There is also direct evidence that Galea is a PED dispenser. A convicted PED dispenser at that, and that galea's intended targets for his PED dispensing are competitive athletes.

Tiger's relationship with Galea then is circumstantial evidence of PED use.

Please, please tell me that you are not a lawyer.  That would frighten me.  The leap you make from the second to the third paragraph is staggering and Bob Beamon-esque.  2+2 equals 4, not 8 billion.

[pabird]

Voted non and believe strongly no Unless of course they proved to have depression in personality effects

[mvmac]

Precisely.  Every injury Tiger has had he has come back from in a standard amount of time.  I don't recall him having any spectacular recoveries that happened in an expedient fashion or the discussion of him coming back "before anyone expected" he would.

I've played baseball at a high level and have seen steroid use first hand.  I never even came close to the stuff in terms of taking it but I certainly can say the results I've seen are WAY more impressive in terms of recovery times and bulk / muscle size than what we have seen with Tiger.  The negative effects to PEDs (see Mvmac's post) are also ones that Tiger doesn't have.  All of this comes down to Tiger being a gym rat and his size is associated to that.  Does he probably have tons of the best Whey Protein available which he gobbles after workouts?  Yes.  Does he probably take a ton of supplements that are legal but work wonders because he can afford it and has the best nutritionists available to man? Yes.  That's really what I believe all that it is and that's what I believe his size is associated to (which, speaking of his size, isn't that big).

People I have heard that compare him to football players and him having the body of a tight end, running back, etc are OUT OF THEIR MINDS to believe that.  Tiger at his biggest would get owned on the football field.  Tiger is a great athlete yes, but come on people...

Thanks for posting. I honestly have no idea what people are seeing when they look at Tiger.

If Tiger wanted to make people believe he was taking PED's, he succeeded. His fan base is seemingly impervious to the circumstial evidence surrounding Tiger and PED's.

Refer to @Deryck Griffith 's post above.

Also I don't consider myself a Tiger "fan". I hope he plays well because it's good for golf and good for driving traffic to our site but I personally root for Phil.

[Abu3baid]

There is direct evidence that Tiger had an ongoing relationship with Dr. Galea and his assistant Dr. Lindsay. There is also direct evidence that Galea is a PED dispenser. A convicted PED dispenser at that, and that Galea's intended targets for his PED dispensing are competitive athletes. Tiger's relationship with Galea then is circumstantial evidence of PED use. [COLOR=222222] Circumstantial evidence [/COLOR][COLOR=222222] is [/COLOR][COLOR=222222] evidence [/COLOR][COLOR=222222] that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact. Direct evidence that it snowed In Pennsylvania early Tuesday would be the testimony of someone who watched the snow actually fall, but indirect evidence would be the appearance of fresh snow itself. [/COLOR] The whole thing about what Haney saw or did not see is a non starter. Woods saw Galea or his assistant 70+ times. By his own account Haney watched a few of those interactions only, so he has no direct knowledge at all what happened the other 66 times.  There are other troubling aspects to this that nobody ever mentions. One full round of PRP treatments, the treatments Tiger claims to have been seeing Galea for, is two to three weeks. Let's assume Tiger is on the very short end of the range, two weeks. Then he'd see Galea or Lindsay every two weeks. Get a shot, re evaluate in two weeks, get a 2nd shot, re evaluate in 2 more weeks (continue). He saw those guys for like a year, or maybe a year and a half. That would be 35 to 40 rounds of treatments. Hard to believe anyone would continue with something that many times. Also, pretty much every decent Ortho practice in Central Florida does PRP on site. My own Ortho doctor here in Pennsylvania has suggested I do a series (meaning 3 to 4) of PRP treatments. So why does Tiger feel the need to leave all the top notch doctors in Florida who have the ability to treat him, and when he makes that decision, why does he then choose an obscure Canadian doctor with a history of dispensing PED's? If Tiger wanted to make people believe he was taking PED's, he succeeded. His fan base is seemingly impervious to the circumstial evidence surrounding Tiger and PED's.

The reason he chose the doctor is simple.. Highly recommended from his friend A-rod who is serving a suspension for PED himself after a very long time of denying the use, and getting defended by fans like myself back when it first started coming out. The point in the end is that it is very hard to just ignore this evidence and say no for sure. Again I'm not saying he's for sure, but Im not going to take what tiger says hook, line and sinker either ;). Especially with his history of decieving the one he "loved". The way I look at it is if he had no issue lying to his wife and betraying her and decieving her, what makes his fans and the tour players any different?

[Deryck Griffith]

Thanks for posting. I honestly have no idea what people are seeing when they look at Tiger.

Blows my mind...

When people say "Lebron James could be a tight end if he didn't play basketball," I say, "that's probably a true statement."  Why?  Well because Lebron James is 6'8" / 250+ LBS.  That's more or less the size you have to be in order to play the tight end in the NFL.  Heck Tom Brady (who looks like an average guy on a football field surrounded by muscle monsters) is 6'4" /225 Lbs.  That 3 inches taller and about 40lbs heavier than Tiger at his peak.  People need to use their heads.

Other examples

• Payton Manning is 6'5" / 230lbs (that's 4 inches taller than Tiger and 45lbs heavier)
• Scrawny younger brother Eli Manning is 6'4" / 218lbs (that's 3 inches taller than Tiger and 33lbs heavier)

Is Brady or the Manning brothers on PEDs?  Why not, they are huge monsters...

[Abu3baid]

Blows my mind...  When people say "Lebron James could be a tight end if he didn't play basketball," I say, "that's probably a true statement."  Why?  Well because Lebron James is 6'8" / 250+ LBS.  That's more or less the size you have to be in order to play the tight end in the NFL.  Heck Tom Brady (who looks like an average guy on a football field surrounded by muscle monsters) is 6'4" /225 Lbs.  That 3 inches taller and about 40lbs heavier than Tiger at his peak.  People need to use their heads.  Other examples [LIST] [*] Payton Manning is 6'5" / 230lbs (that's 4 inches taller than Tiger and 45lbs heavier) [*] Scrawny younger brother Eli Manning is 6'4" / 218lbs (that's 3 inches taller than Tiger and 33lbs heavier) [/LIST] Is Brady or the Manning brothers on PEDs?  Why not, they are huge monsters...

If news comes out tomorrow that the brothers and Brady had any sort of meetings and "therapy" sessions with doctors who have a close relationship to balco or to a dr convicted of dispensing PED to professional players then yes I would question everything and start asking questions and building different scenarios accordingly..

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

Blows my mind...

When people say "Lebron James could be a tight end if he didn't play basketball," I say, "that's probably a true statement."  Why?  Well because Lebron James is 6'8" / 250+ LBS.  That's more or less the size you have to be in order to play the tight end in the NFL.  Heck Tom Brady (who looks like an average guy on a football field surrounded by muscle monsters) is 6'4" /225 Lbs.  That 3 inches taller and about 40lbs heavier than Tiger at his peak.  People need to use their heads.

Other examples

Payton Manning is 6'5" / 230lbs (that's 4 inches taller than Tiger and 45lbs heavier)

Scrawny younger brother Eli Manning is 6'4" / 218lbs (that's 3 inches taller than Tiger and 33lbs heavier)

Is Brady or the Manning brothers on PEDs?  Why not, they are huge monsters...

If news comes out tomorrow that the brothers and Brady had any sort of meetings and "therapy" sessions with doctors who have a close relationship to balco or to a dr convicted of dispensing PED to professional players then yes I would question everything and start asking questions and building different scenarios accordingly..

People can get pretty big and strong without the use of PEDs.

[billchao]

Tiger's relationship with Galea then is circumstantial evidence of PED use.

You've failed to demonstrate that. All you've proven is something we've known for a long time: Tiger went to Galea for medical services of some kind. You need more evidence to support your PED argument, otherwise all you're doing is making assumptions and trying to find arguments to prove your conclusions.

The reason he chose the doctor is simple.. Highly recommended from his friend A-rod who is serving a suspension for PED himself after a very long time of denying the use, and getting defended by fans like myself back when it first started coming out. The point in the end is that it is very hard to just ignore this evidence and say no for sure.

This also fails as evidence of PED use. It's logical that Tiger would go to a doctor based on A-Rod's recommendation. They're both world class athletes. It's illogical to assume Tiger used PEDs because A-Rod did. There is a lot of evidence that proves A-Rod did PEDs, including numerous failed drug tests. Nobody condemned A-Rod simply because he went to Galea, as people here seem to be doing.

[Deryck Griffith]

If news comes out tomorrow that the brothers and Brady had any sort of meetings and "therapy" sessions with doctors who have a close relationship to balco or to a dr convicted of dispensing PED to professional players then yes I would question everything and start asking questions and building different scenarios accordingly..

My point was to shine light on the fact that Tiger isn't this huge super athlete that everyone claims him to be "because of PEDs."

Let first work from the base that he isn't a Monster Sized Super Athlete and THEN, build our judgments from there because it seems like a lot of people argue that he did PED's based on evidence that he is "huge," which..... he isn't.  He is a normal sized man.  Have you ever seen Tiger next to Henrik Stenson?

[billchao]

My point was to shine light on the fact that Tiger isn't this huge super athlete that everyone claims him to be "because of PEDs."

Let first work from the base that he isn't a Monster Sized Super Athlete and THEN, build our judgments from there because it seems like a lot of people argue that he did PED's based on evidence that he is "huge," which..... he isn't.

I tell people this all the time. I've been to PGA Tour events and seen these people in person. They're not big people. I'm pretty sure I'm bigger than Rory, who despite building up a lot of muscle recently, is somehow free of these PED accusations.

Gary Woodland has always been touted by the golf media as "built like a linebacker." He's not big enough to play linebacker at any decent college level. These people have a serious misconception of size and I think a lot of people are basing their judgments based on those comments.

[Technician7179]

PEDs are not just for making big muscles. There are all types. I dont know the story but if I read the OP correctly thats an admission to blood doping. Lance Armstrong did the same thing. So many ccs out. Twirl it around, add oxygen and re administer and back in a hour or so before the round.

[Abu3baid]

My point was to shine light on the fact that Tiger isn't this huge super athlete that everyone claims him to be "because of PEDs."  Let first work from the base that he isn't a Monster Sized Super Athlete and THEN, build our judgments from there because it seems like a lot of people argue that he did PED's based on evidence that he is "huge," which..... he isn't.  He is a normal sized man.  Have you ever seen Tiger next to Henrik Stenson?

Agreed.. I'm not in that camp and I haven't once pointed that out as a point of argument from my side. Others have, just not me. [quote name="Lihu" url="/t/80150/the-tiger-woods-ped-thread/60_10#post_1106833"] People can get pretty big and strong without the use of PEDs. [/quote] Of course they can, but if they do under the watchful eye of balco I'll be asking questions.. Maybe you won't, but you are nicer than me :) [quote name="billchao" url="/t/80150/the-tiger-woods-ped-thread/60_10#post_1106836"]You've failed to demonstrate that. All you've proven is something we've known for a long time: Tiger went to Galea for medical services of some kind. You need more evidence to support your PED argument, otherwise all you're doing is making assumptions and trying to find arguments to prove your conclusions. This also fails as evidence of PED use. It's logical that Tiger would go to a doctor based on A-Rod's recommendation. They're both world class athletes. It's illogical to assume Tiger used PEDs because A-Rod did. There is a lot of evidence that proves A-Rod did PEDs, including numerous failed drug tests. Nobody condemned A-Rod simply because he went to Galea, as people here seem to be doing. [/quote] I don't think we have known for a long time that he had 60+ personal visits by two doctors who are clearly associated and even convicted of dispensing PED.. If it was 1 or 2 or even 10 visits ok, but 60+? I'm not saying that he did because A rod did, what I'm saying is that after everything that has come out about other world class athletes using the same doctors, there is now a shadow of a doubt cloud on Tiger.. If I started making daily trips to a crack house it doesn't matter how nice a guy people think I am.. Tiger should have known better. [quote name="billchao" url="/t/80150/the-tiger-woods-ped-thread/60_10#post_1106839"]I tell people this all the time. I've been to PGA Tour events and seen these people in person. They're not big people. I'm pretty sure I'm bigger than Rory, who despite building up a lot of muscle recently, is somehow free of these PED accusations. Gary Woodland has always been touted by the golf media as "built like a linebacker." He's not big enough to play linebacker at any decent college level. These people have a serious misconception of size and I think a lot of people are basing their judgments based on those comments. [/quote] I will start writing about Rory asap if you tell me he had health consultation meetings with the witch doctor from Canada! Just not the same thing.

[phan52]

"Galea visited Woods at his Florida home 14 times between January and August 2009 for a charge to Woods of $76,012. In addition, the book, citing a Florida Department of Health Investigation, said Galea's associate and fellow Canadian, Dr. Mark Lindsay, visited Woods 49 times between September 2008 and October 2009 for a charge of $118,979. Both doctors, authors Tim Elfrink and Gus Garcia-Roberts write in Blood Sport, also treated Rodriguez."

I mean, c'mon. Hell, yes.

[billchao]

I don't think we have known for a long time that he had 60+ personal visits by two doctors who are clearly associated and even convicted of dispensing PED.. If it was 1 or 2 or even 10 visits ok, but 60+?

Both Galea and Tiger (and Haney) have stated that the visits were for platelet-rich plasma injections. I'll just assume that means nothing to you, though.

I'm not saying that he did because A rod did, what I'm saying is that after everything that has come out about other world class athletes using the same doctors, there is now a shadow of a doubt cloud on Tiger..

Galea has other clients, some of whom are high profile athletes, who have never been implicated in PED use. Dara Torres for example, who was subject to IOC Anti-Doping Rules during her competitive career. You can't assume everyone who sees Galea for treatment got PEDs.

I will start writing about Rory asap if you tell me he had health consultation meetings with the witch doctor from Canada! Just not the same thing.

The point of the Rory comment was based on muscular gain, which some people have cited as evidence against Tiger. It was made in response to a comment about golfers' sizes. You're taking it out of context.

[ScouseJohnny]

I fell for it, not just Armstrong, but Indurain, LeMond, Hinault, the whole sport which I loved

LeMond rode clean.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by 9iron

Tiger's relationship with Galea then is circumstantial evidence of PED use. Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact.

It seems to me that your "connection" boils down to "I don't like Tiger Woods." Galea had several other patients who have been subject to far more stringent testing and who did not ever come under suspicion of PEDs. There's a fact that serves to break up your "connection."

The whole thing about what Haney saw or did not see is a non starter. Woods saw Galea or his assistant 70+ times.

All of which occurred after Tiger's last win in a major, no? And the count is at 49 or so, based on a cursory reading of those numbers in this thread.

So why does Tiger feel the need to leave all the top notch doctors in Florida who have the ability to treat him, and when he makes that decision, why does he then choose an obscure Canadian doctor with a history of dispensing PED's?

Ask him.

You're assuming an answer to the question without actually knowing what the answer is. Maybe it's as simple as "He would come to my home, I thought he was discrete, and my buddy recommended him for this treatment." Though Tiger apparently enjoyed "dining" at Denny's, that doesn't mean he's going to go sit in a regular doctor's waiting office next to Larry the plumber and Jolene the stay-at-home mom and part-time Lowe's employee for a standard PRP therapy. This is the same guy who flies all over to have his eyes operated on by the best, or his knee, etc. It's safe to consider that he'd have different needs and wants than "the local doctor."

Please, please tell me that you are not a lawyer.  That would frighten me.  The leap you make from the second to the third paragraph is staggering and Bob Beamon-esque.  2+2 equals 4, not 8 billion.

Seriously.

I don't think we have known for a long time that he had 60+ personal visits by two doctors who are clearly associated and even convicted of dispensing PED.. If it was 1 or 2 or even 10 visits ok, but 60+?

Are you a doctor all of a sudden?

I didn't think so, and yet here you are, making judgments on something about which you know next to nothing, including - if the 49 above is right - the actual number of visits.

This is the problem with some of the arguments in this thread given the amount of actual evidence. Whether it's "Tiger's massive size" (he's not massive), Tiger's connection with Galea (which could easily be completely on the up and up), or Tiger's previous infidelities (which, so far as we know, his wife knew about and/or condoned and only got upset about when it was going to be made public), people seem to want to latch on to some small thing and then make this tremendous leap to "Tiger did PEDs." Oh, I forgot another one: "everyone else did PEDs" (also untrue). That's another popular leaping point.

You working hard to find a point A (which in many cases doesn't even exist, like how "massive" Tiger is) and then using that to leap all the way to Z with the only real "connection" being "I (you) don't like Tiger."

I'm not saying that he did because A rod did, what I'm saying is that after everything that has come out about other world class athletes using the same doctors, there is now a shadow of a doubt cloud on Tiger.

A shadow is not 80% or whatever you said before.

If I started making daily trips to a crack house it doesn't matter how nice a guy people think I am.

Maybe you're a social worker. Or a police officer. Or you're just trying to help people.

You're awfully quick to assume and judge.

[Abu3baid]

Both Galea and Tiger (and Haney) have stated that the visits were for platelet-rich plasma injections. I'll just assume that means nothing to you, though. Galea has other clients, some of whom are high profile athletes, who have never been implicated in PED use. Dara Torres for example, who was subject to IOC Anti-Doping Rules during her competitive career. You can't assume everyone who sees Galea for treatment got PEDs. The point of the Rory comment was based on muscular gain, which some people have cited as evidence against Tiger. It was made in response to a comment about golfers' sizes. You're taking it out of context.

Can you blame me for not taking Dr. G word for it? Convicted PED distributor. Definitely can't blame me for not taking tigers word for it! Lived a lie that is way worst in my mind than PED allegations. As for Haney by his own words he only attended 3-4 sessions out of 60 that we now know happened (never mind the possible sessions that no one knows anything about). Sorry about the Rory comment, I misunderstood I apologize. Anyway, in time in sure we will find out more.. People will start digging for the truth (or the story)... If it does turn out to be true then at least well be able to close the tiger vs jack thread, so that's a good thing :). If it isn't true, I'm sorry I voted yes on this thread!