Greg Norman Says Players Content with Top 20s over Wins

[Silent]

I don't agree. They do have to try as hard, since the competition is much harder. Don't think a player can 'take it easy': If they don't perform, thousands of others can take your place who also have swing coaches and all...

[turtleback]

I know you are joking, but Greg Norman probably cared more than any other golfer in any era.

I saw him interviewed where he said he'd trade every other victory for a Masters. That tournament broke him.

And the tragedy of this is that in years to come, people will look at his major tally and not even realise that he was in a stratospheric level, talent wise. Norman in full flight was as exciting as anyone, Tiger Woods included. His power and accuracy with the older equipment had to be seen to be believed.

Norman was exciting in the way Phil is exciting - it is exciting waiting for a train wreck.  With Tiger we wondered what crazy thing he was going to do to win the major.  With Norman it was what crazy thing he is going to do to lose it.

If he really wanted to win majors he would have put in the effort and work to make it happen.  After all isn't that exactly what he is saying about the guys he is criticizing?  Would it be fair for me to say "He was content with having the #1 ranking in the world and winning  a bunch of money in regular events but he way too complacent to win majors."  Of course not!  It would be just as unfair as the nonsense he is spewing now.

If I am joking about Norman then what he is saying about other players is just as much as a joke.  Because I do not remember 75 players winning tournaments every year in his day.  Just as many players do not win as ever was the case  The only thing that has changed is at they make more money as does EVERY OTHER PRO ATHLETE now, relative to a comparable guy 30 years earlier.

This whole thing is just whining about how much money professional athletes make.  With a dab of Aussie nationalism.

[Ferguson]

I don't agree. They do have to try as hard, since the competition is much harder. Don't think a player can 'take it easy': If they don't perform, thousands of others can take your place who also have swing coaches and all...

The competition is much harder? I beg to differ.

Watson, Nicklaus, Trevino, Palmer, Kite, Crenshaw, Player, Hogan, Snead, Casper, Ballesteros, Miller, Norman – these guys were the best of the best, period. They played with wooden clubs, wound balls and crappy footwear. HEAD-TO-HEAD these guys would clean the clocks of the modern day player.

Regarding “thousands of others” to take their place.

True, there are many great players out there, but few play the game greatly enough to win consistently on tour.

Guys don’t win because they play their best golf. They win because they shoot the lowest aggregate score.

Ferguson

[Silent]

The competition is much harder?   I beg to differ.

Watson, Nicklaus, Trevino, Palmer, Kite, Crenshaw, Player, Hogan, Snead, Casper, Ballesteros, Miller, Norman – these guys were the best of the best, period.  They played with wooden clubs, wound balls and crappy footwear.   HEAD-TO-HEAD these guys would clean the clocks of the modern day player.

Regarding “thousands of others” to take their place.

True, there are many great players out there, but few play the game greatly enough to win consistently on tour.

Guys don’t win because they play their best golf.  They win because they shoot the lowest aggregate score.

Ferguson

Yes, but let's agree to disagree. FWIW I'm not saying that the top players back then were less good, I'm saying they were with fewer at the same time so the competition within any giving tournament is harder nowadays. More competition of other golfers who're also knocking on the door to take over your Tour card. Laying back and taking it easy is simply not an option because you'll get eaten alive.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent

I don't agree. They do have to try as hard, since the competition is much harder. Don't think a player can 'take it easy': If they don't perform, thousands of others can take your place who also have swing coaches and all...

The competition is much harder?   I beg to differ.

Watson, Nicklaus, Trevino, Palmer, Kite, Crenshaw, Player, Hogan, Snead, Casper, Ballesteros, Miller, Norman – these guys were the best of the best, period.  They played with wooden clubs, wound balls and crappy footwear.   HEAD-TO-HEAD these guys would clean the clocks of the modern day player.

Regarding “thousands of others” to take their place.

True, there are many great players out there, but few play the game greatly enough to win consistently on tour.

Guys don’t win because they play their best golf.  They win because they shoot the lowest aggregate score.

Ferguson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

The competition is much harder?   I beg to differ.

Watson, Nicklaus, Trevino, Palmer, Kite, Crenshaw, Player, Hogan, Snead, Casper, Ballesteros, Miller, Norman – these guys were the best of the best, period.  They played with wooden clubs, wound balls and crappy footwear.   HEAD-TO-HEAD these guys would clean the clocks of the modern day player.

Regarding “thousands of others” to take their place.

True, there are many great players out there, but few play the game greatly enough to win consistently on tour.

Guys don’t win because they play their best golf.  They win because they shoot the lowest aggregate score.

Ferguson

Yes, but let's agree to disagree. FWIW I'm not saying that the top players back then were less good, I'm saying they were with fewer at the same time so the competition within any giving tournament is harder nowadays. More competition of other golfers who're also knocking on the door to take over your Tour card. Laying back and taking it easy is simply not an option because you'll get eaten alive.

Please don't start this again in this thread.  Go to this thread:

[Silent]

My apologies Scott.Was just trying to 'tackle' the argument that they don't have to try as hard nowadays. Won't persue this argument further in this topic.

[inthehole]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

The competition is much harder?   I beg to differ.

Watson, Nicklaus, Trevino, Palmer, Kite, Crenshaw, Player, Hogan, Snead, Casper, Ballesteros, Miller, Norman – these guys were the best of the best, period.  They played with wooden clubs, wound balls and crappy footwear.   HEAD-TO-HEAD these guys would clean the clocks of the modern day player.

Regarding “thousands of others” to take their place.

True, there are many great players out there, but few play the game greatly enough to win consistently on tour.

Guys don’t win because they play their best golf.  They win because they shoot the lowest aggregate score.

Ferguson

Yes, but let's agree to disagree. FWIW I'm not saying that the top players back then were less good, I'm saying they were with fewer at the same time so the competition within any giving tournament is harder nowadays. More competition of other golfers who're also knocking on the door to take over your Tour card. Laying back and taking it easy is simply not an option because you'll get eaten alive.

I think the best way to put it in context, is that in yesteryear, there were maybe a dozen or two guys that could win any tournament.   Today, practically anyone in the top 50 (maybe even top 75) has a pretty fair shot at winning.     Field is just without question DEEPER today...

[jbishop15]

Please don't start this again in this thread.  Go to this thread:

Whaaaaaaat, you don't want us to go in circles for the next three months?! Come on, man! We need another extra long thread about the same thing!

[eaglevision]

I think this is a pretty fair statement by Norman. [URL=http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/golf-devil-ball-golf/greg-norman---certain-players---would-rather-be-a-sheep-031104998-golf.html]http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/golf-devil-ball-golf/greg-norman---certain-players---would-rather-be-a-sheep-031104998-golf.html[/URL]

[quote name="billchao" url="/t/80534/greg-norman-says-players-content-with-top-20s-over-wins#post_1111455"]Or maybe the quality of competition has gotten so high that it's nust harder to win on the PGA Tour now. Seriously, he sounds a bit like a homer making homer comments. If we're going to speculate on whether a player has enough "drive to win" based on their record, I would have lumped Jason Day into that mix. I guess he was happy enough with his two major wins that he didn't want to win any more ;-)[/quote] Content with top 20 cash... Plausible(shrug)? Desire to finish in the top 20 without winning tournaments... Highly doubtful!

[eaglevision]

Content with top 20 cash... Possibly. Desire to finish in the top 20 without winning tournaments... False!

You naturally have got to be a competitor at heart to be on tour!

[iacas]

They can live like fat cats playing just well enough to keep it in the top 20 and tweet it to their friends all the way to the bank.   Back in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, guys had a “different” drive to win due to an incessant hunger, not only from a necessity and clinical standpoint, but a metaphorical perspective.   In addition, they also had to physically drive to their next tournament.   They didn’t have luxury aircraft, top shelf liquor and pasta served 20 different ways.  Their parents has different values – they we’re working class people – times were different and the standard of living was different as well.

You know this how? Oh, just guessing? Okay.

If you want to see the true measure of a pro golfer who loved to win – look at Tom Watson (especially the back of his neck).   That is pure alligator, hard-working skin, the result of hours in the sun practicing and playing and trying to WIN!

One man's proof of hard work is another man's proof of a lax attitude regarding skin care and cancer prevention.

I love it. Someone works their ass off to be one of the best in the world at their craft and they're dinged for lack of "drive".

I don't know if you've ever played golf before, but just to stay competent (and I mean just competent) requires hours and hours of practice and play. And that's for country club golfers!

You don't get to the PGA Tour and stay there without mental toughness, work ethic, and plain-ass crazy ambition. It doesn't work that way.

Let's be real here.

Back in those days, the best in the game put the extra effort in. Hogan, Jack, Vardon; all busted to get to the top. They did have the burning desire to make a living.

But the game is different now. The amount of effort a Gary Player put in at the gym and practice range is now the norm instead of the exception. I can tell you with a reasonable degree of accuracy that the 80th ranked player put just as much work in as Jack Nicklaus. He has to, because everyone else is.

So perhaps the desire doesnt come from desperation, but the amount of effort and work out in by the players today is the same or greater; they wouldn't sniff the Tour otherwise.

Just wanted to quote two A+ posts here.

Look at the scope of the modern game.   These guys have everything they need to succeed: playing coaches, swing trainers, life coaches, mental coaches, free lunches, the newest and the best clothes, waterproof gear and the list goes on.

Which is part of the reason why it's so difficult to STAY on the PGA Tour. Back in Jack's day, you could get by on talent and a little work. Nowadays it takes extreme talent AND a lot of work.

For pete’s sake, Jack Nicklaus wore the same damn pair of pants on Saturday as he did on Sunday for the 18-hole US OPEN playoff with Arnie in 1962.  It wasn’t about fashion or grace or what flavor Power Bar was hot this week.   It was about playing the game to WIN.

Uhm, okay? Fail to see how that makes your point.

Are the modern players winning more majors?  No.

Are there some good rivalries on tour?  No.

Have they invented more majors for modern players to win? No.

Would a broader, deeper talent base explain the lack of rivalries? Yes.

I grew up watching the greats, so I was spoiled.   My point - modern golfers are basically homogenous.

First smart thing you've said in this thread, but I bet you don't know why…

I’m not saying they don’t try – I’m just saying they don’t have to try as hard, and it shows.

The extra effort is what separates the greats from the mundane.

If everyone is great, things can be pretty mundane.

The competition is much harder? I beg to differ.

Yes, but as others said, take it up here: .

[Ferguson]

IACAS,

All good points and I would love to counter, but it seems each time I try to respond to a post such as yours, it gets deleted,  I get a warning from the forum police or I get locked out.  And that's okay.

Not responding to you would have been insolent seeing that you put so much work in that last one.

Thanks, and have a nice day.

Ferg

[boogielicious]

IACAS,

All good points and I would love to counter, but it seems each time I try to respond to a post such as yours, it gets deleted,  I get a warning from the forum police or I get locked out.  And that's okay.

Not responding to you would have been insolent seeing that you put so much work in that last one.

Thanks, and have a nice day.

Ferg

Posts only get deleted when they are off topic, are a repeated post or a malformed post (i.e. writing a response inside of a quote) or are spam.  You only get restricted from a thread when you are rude or do not stop being off topic.  That is the issue.  In other threads you continued with off topic rants and were therefore restricted.

Have a nice day.

[Undr Par]

I can't agree or disagree with what Norman said here.  The way points are given (FedEx, Ryder Cup etc..)  you can have a successful/great season making a living with top 20 finishes in tourneys entered.

But, I can't see where a player would invest so much time and energy into practicing, having swing coaches, putting coaches etc only to have the mentality that "heck I just want to finish in the top 20 and all is well" I don't see that honestly, specially among the top tier players in the World.  If that were the case why not just quit the Tour and become a teacher at a course somewhere.

[iacas]

All good points and I would love to counter, but it seems each time I try to respond to a post such as yours, it gets deleted,  I get a warning from the forum police or I get locked out.  And that's okay.

Cut the victim crap. You're wrong.

You were restricted from one thread (and not by me) because you couldn't or wouldn't shut up, despite multiple warnings, about off-topic bull about Matt Kuchar and his father for something that happened decades ago.

I've deleted one post of yours, ever (I just checked), and that was a Masters Prediction thread. It was deleted only because we create those prediction threads for majors because we make contests out of them.

Please stick to the topics of the threads and heed moderator warnings when they are given. If you have concerns about moderation, posting off-topic things in threads is not the way to handle it.

[oregongolfguy]

I would probably say that I'm sure that a lot of the players feel happy, blessed, however you want to put it to be in the top 20 consistently.  And of course this is just speculation but I think that most of them have the drive to compete and win.  I can't picture in today's gold world how you could possibly stay around the top 20 consistently unless you had a lot of drive to be the best you can be.

[Silent]

I would probably say that I'm sure that a lot of the players feel happy, blessed, however you want to put it to be in the top 20 consistently.  And of course this is just speculation but I think that most of them have the drive to compete and win.  I can't picture in today's gold world how you could possibly stay around the top 20 consistently unless you had a lot of drive to be the best you can be.

True. And if I might add, I think a player who is consistently in the top 20, he's also winning tournaments every now and then.

[Ferguson]

I can't agree or disagree with what Norman said here.  The way points are given (FedEx, Ryder Cup etc..)  you can have a successful/great season making a living with top 20 finishes in tourneys entered.

But, I can't see where a player would invest so much time and energy into practicing, having swing coaches, putting coaches etc only to have the mentality that "heck I just want to finish in the top 20 and all is well" I don't see that honestly, specially among the top tier players in the World.  If that were the case why not just quit the Tour and become a teacher at a course somewhere.

Emerson Mahoney over at Brampton once told me that golfers tend to peak if they can get over the mental hump of winning. In others words, the best golfers are those who strike early in their careers. It’s quite plausible there is some merit to that statement. Maybe the ones in the top twenty are skilled enough but need that mental nudge to take them to the next level, but are stuck in idle and have grown complacent?