Greg Norman Says Players Content with Top 20s over Wins

[turtleback]

Emerson Mahoney over at Brampton once told me that golfers tend to peak if they can get over the mental hump of winning.   In others words, the best golfers are those who strike early in their careers.   It’s quite plausible there is some merit to that statement.   Maybe the ones in the top twenty are skilled enough but need that mental nudge to take them to the next level, but are stuck in idle and have grown complacent?

Name names.  I want to know who these mythical guys are who can consistently finish in the top 20 but never win.  I do not believe they exist.

[Ferguson]

Name names.  I want to know who these mythical guys are who can consistently finish in the top 20 but never win.  I do not believe they exist.

Emerson is a local pro at the Brampton Golf Club. These were his thoughts, but they made sense to me.

Ever been to a youth league for baseball or soccer? No Scoring – No winners.

It’s my thought that we are possibly teaching out the value of winning.

In other words, it’s okay to settle in.

[Quadhole]

Good point and sure guys like that know way more than I do. Never even played in a tour. event of any kind. I can only imagine how difficult it is to win. So many times I bet guys who are way down the leaderboard after day one or 2 because the guys at the top can not hold it. Todays leaderboard looks just like I mention. Mostly names of guys with a greeat round or two and will finish in 30th. Not because they want to, or even because they lay back, I think there are just better golfers over 4 rounds.

I still think they are all great.... I actually like Ortiz this week and have him on all my bets, fantasy, etc. I laid off Cejka because of the win, Have streelamn, and Donaldson, Reed, Speith, and Thomas...Of all the players scoring for me, who woulda thunk it that reed and speith are last... That is the type of guy I want lower NOW. They will plow back, I hope..

[Quadhole]

And yet, if they relax a little, they… fall out of the top 125 and are no longer on the PGA Tour.

And again, I've still yet to meet a guy on the PGA Tour who isn't basically trying to win every week (the only ones who I could say are not trying to win every week are the ones like Tiger Woods who are playing to peak for the majors, a luxury afforded to those who have already demonstrated they can and do win frequently).

On your comment of "trying to win each week"... Do you mean that they TOLD you that... Or that is what you think, or somewhere inbetween... I only ask because it would only be naturalto try and win each week,  after each round 1 you have to evaluate your position in the tour, your bank acct. your tour card, etc... Every week and every tour is going to lead to something different.

Of course, again, as stated, certain people depending on their position outside of the tour, sales, reps, caddies, etc. are going to say (what is expected of them) and can't deviate from that due to the nature of their income.

I really don't think one blanket statement of (they all try to win each week, every round and on every shot) covers it. Tiger, your right, how ironic is it that the BEST, guys like rory and others still win many times. Just wininng isn't enough and they want more. Those type are easy to pick out and their ODDS betting wise are low every week.

[jbishop15]

Emerson is a local pro at the Brampton Golf Club.   These were his thoughts, but they made sense to me.

Ever been to a youth league for baseball or soccer?   No Scoring – No winners.

It’s my thought that we are possibly teaching out the value of winning.

In other words, it’s okay to settle in.

I mean, seriously. First of all, in life, winning isn't everything; that is literally the key to not being miserable is recognizing the putting everything in the binary of win/lose is a bad idea. In professional sports, it is.

One of my favorite things about the world is how in one breath we criticize people for being "helicopter parents" and then in the next we say kids are too soft and don't want to win.

[Lihu]

I mean, seriously. First of all, in life, winning isn't everything; that is literally the key to not being miserable is recognizing the putting everything in the binary of win/lose is a bad idea. In professional sports, it is.

One of my favorite things about the world is how in one breath we criticize people for being "helicopter parents" and then in the next we say kids are too soft and don't want to win.

I can really relate to this one. On the one hand, I want my kids to be kids and be able to take ownership of their learning/training process in their own way. On the other, I know they need to keep up their wins/grades to compete in this overly competitive world. It's not a bad idea to insure their future by giving them a little "push" to get the wins/grades they need, but somehow to do it without really "pushing" them.

If you find a way to do this, I'm interested. . .

[newtogolf]

Emerson is a local pro at the Brampton Golf Club.   These were his thoughts, but they made sense to me.

Ever been to a youth league for baseball or soccer?   No Scoring – No winners.

It’s my thought that we are possibly teaching out the value of winning.

In other words, it’s okay to settle in.

Youth leagues initially focus on teaching the fundamentals of the game and not winning or losing to keep the kids interested and the parents in the bleachers quiet.  As the kids progress, the competition levels and emphasis on winning is exceedingly high.  Kids today have to play sports year round to have a chance to start on their H.S. teams and receive a scholarship which wasn't the case when I was in H.S.

Let's not confuse the politically correct participation trophies with complacency towards winning.  The winners trophy is always bigger and nicer and everyone knows who won and who didn't.  With regards to golf, I don't believe you can become one of the top 125 golfers in the world and not have a intense desire to win.

[Ferguson]

I can really relate to this one. On the one hand, I want my kids to be kids and be able to take ownership of their learning/training process in their own way. On the other, I know they need to keep up their wins/grades to compete in this overly competitive world. It's not a bad idea to insure their future by giving them a little "push" to get the wins/grades they need, but somehow to do it without really "pushing" them.

If you find a way to do this, I'm interested. . .

Here is how you push -  Let them drive the bus, but you provide the map and be the police.

My kids are not allowed to watch TV Monday-Friday during school.  They are both are straight-A students.

I often ask them if they miss it - they answer no. They have learned on their own TV is a waste of time during the week.

They love to watch TV on weekends.

As far as be smart and winning - I teach them that winners are usually smart about the way they carry themselves in life (Palmer, Player to name a few).

My kids have learned to be smart about they way they use their time and smart about who they hang out with.  Good people make good decisions.

I teach my kids to do their best to make good decisions.

Sit around and watch TV instead of chipping in the backyard, and your short game will suffer.

Hope that helps.

[Ferguson]

Youth leagues initially focus on teaching the fundamentals of the game and not winning or losing to keep the kids interested and the parents in the bleachers quiet.  As the kids progress, the competition levels and emphasis on winning is exceedingly high.  Kids today have to play sports year round to have a chance to start on their H.S. teams and receive a scholarship which wasn't the case when I was in H.S.

Let's not confuse the politically correct participation trophies with complacency towards winning.  The winners trophy is always bigger and nicer and everyone knows who won and who didn't.  With regards to golf, I don't believe you can become one of the top 125 golfers in the world and not have a intense desire to win.

Re: I don't believe you can become one of the top 125 golfers in the world and not have a intense desire to win.

I disagree a little.  50% or more of these guys lack the intense desire to win.  They might like to win and have won in the past, but are they really putting winning as the # 1 priority in their lives?

I don't think so.   I'm ASSUMING some of them think life is too short for golf alone.

[Golfingdad]

.... I'm ASSUMING ....

Agree 100% with this part of your post.

[jbishop15]

Agree 100% with this part of your post.

:-D :-D :-D

[Ferguson]

Re: I don't believe you can become one of the top 125 golfers in the world and not have a intense desire to win.

I disagree a little.  50% or more of these guys lack the intense desire to win.  They might like to win and have won in the past, but are they really putting winning as the # 1 priority in their lives?

I don't think so.   I'm ASSUMING some of them think life is too short for golf alone.

I'm CONFIDENT at least 25% of these top 125 players have achievemephobia (fear of success, or moving forward, or upward).   They all possess the skills but let themselves get in the way of winning.  The same way a parent's fear gets in the way of their child's success.

For the layman (non-clinical type), you might perhaps refer to this condition as, "stepping on your pickle."

[newtogolf]

I'm CONFIDENT at least 25% of these top 125 players have achievemephobia (fear of success, or moving forward, or upward).   They all possess the skills but let themselves get in the way of winning.  The same way a parent's fear gets in the way of their child's success.

For the layman (non-clinical type), you might perhaps refer to this condition as, "stepping on your pickle."

Where do you come up with this stuff?  Of all the people that play golf, 125-150 make it to the PGA Tour and you're saying that despite the extremely high odds against them of making it to that level they have fear of success?   Statements like the above really minimize the skill and success these individuals need to possess in order to even make it to the PGA Tour.

Why do you attribute their lack of success on the PGA Tour as a phobia or personality shortcoming rather than they are simply not overall good enough to beat the very best in the sport?   Jimmy Walker usually struggles to win tournaments when the very best players are competing but he wins tournaments in the early season, same is true for some of the what I consider lesser skilled players.

Do you just single out golfers or do you think this phobia also exists in tennis and other individual sports?

[Ferguson]

Where do you come up with this stuff?  Of all the people that play golf, 125-150 make it to the PGA Tour and you're saying that despite the extremely high odds against them of making it to that level they have fear of success?   Statements like the above really minimize the skill and success these individuals need to possess in order to even make it to the PGA Tour.

Why do you attribute their lack of success on the PGA Tour as a phobia or personality shortcoming rather than they are simply not overall good enough to beat the very best in the sport?   Jimmy Walker usually struggles to win tournaments when the very best players are competing but he wins tournaments in the early season, same is true for some of the what I consider lesser skilled players.

Do you just single out golfers or do you think this phobia also exists in tennis and other individual sports?

Re: Where do you come up with this stuff?

I have a breadth of knowledge in many areas, and I do a lot of reading.

Re: Of all the people that play golf, 125-150 make it to the PGA Tour and you're saying that despite the extremely high odds against them of making it to that level they have fear of success?   Statements like the above really minimize the skill and success these individuals need to possess in order to even make it to the PGA Tour.  Why do you attribute their lack of success on the PGA Tour as a phobia or personality shortcoming rather than they are simply not overall good enough to beat the very best in the sport?

It does not minimize their skill at all.  It simply explains why these guys that play at such a high skill level have trouble moving up.  In other words, there is no “mechanical” reason why they shouldn’t be winning more. It has to be mental and it has to be fear.  As I said earlier, any of these guys can shoot 63 whenever they want at their own club.  But once that gun goes off and they are on stage for 4 days – some of these guys (roughly 25%)  let fear overrun their desire to win.   The guy that wins early in his career has an easier time dealing with it.  It builds confidence, esteem, etc….

Re: Do you just single out golfers or do you think this phobia also exists in tennis and other individual sports?

YES, it exists even in the common workplace office environment.  That’s why some very qualified people stay in the same job for 25 years – they have the skills but can’t get by the fear.

[newtogolf]

Re: Where do you come up with this stuff?

I have a breadth of knowledge in many areas, and I do a lot of reading.

So basically it's just your opinion, got it.

[Ferguson]

Of course the fears they face are theirs alone. As is what inspires them and how they define success. This isn’t about comparisons. It’s simply about being willing to challenge the stories, excuses and beliefs that may be getting in the way of their “success” in whatever area of their life they feel it’s lacking. And it’s about having the courage to step right through the middle of their fears and into whatever actions are calling them forward. Only by daring to dive deeply in to life can they soar to the heights of success they aspire to.

As uttered by someone I don’t recall right now, “Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing.”

Ferguson

60735

[jbishop15]

I'm CONFIDENT at least 25% of these top 125 players have achievemephobia (fear of success, or moving forward, or upward).   They all possess the skills but let themselves get in the way of winning.  The same way a parent's fear gets in the way of their child's success.

For the layman (non-clinical type), you might perhaps refer to this condition as, "stepping on your pickle."

Re: Where do you come up with this stuff?

I have a breadth of knowledge in many areas, and I do a lot of reading.

Re: Of all the people that play golf, 125-150 make it to the PGA Tour and you're saying that despite the extremely high odds against them of making it to that level they have fear of success?   Statements like the above really minimize the skill and success these individuals need to possess in order to even make it to the PGA Tour.  Why do you attribute their lack of success on the PGA Tour as a phobia or personality shortcoming rather than they are simply not overall good enough to beat the very best in the sport?

It does not minimize their skill at all.  It simply explains why these guys that play at such a high skill level have trouble moving up.  In other words, there is no “mechanical” reason why they shouldn’t be winning more. It has to be mental and it has to be fear.  As I said earlier, any of these guys can shoot 63 whenever they want at their own club.  But once that gun goes off and they are on stage for 4 days – some of these guys (roughly 25%)  let fear overrun their desire to win.   The guy that wins early in his career has an easier time dealing with it.  It builds confidence, esteem, etc….

Re: Do you just single out golfers or do you think this phobia also exists in tennis and other individual sports?

YES, it exists even in the common workplace office environment.  That’s why some very qualified people stay in the same job for 25 years – they have the skills but can’t get by the fear.

Of course the fears they face are theirs alone.  As is what inspires them and how they define success.  This isn’t about comparisons.  It’s simply about being willing to challenge the stories, excuses and beliefs that may be getting in the way of their “success” in whatever area of their life they feel it’s lacking.  And it’s about having the courage to step right through the middle of their fears and into whatever actions are calling them forward.  Only by daring to dive deeply in to life can they soar to the heights of success they aspire to.

As uttered by someone I don’t recall right now, “Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing.”

Ferguson

60735

I think we're firmly in the 'trolling' part of this discussion.

[Ferguson]

Think about it.   We marvel at these guys that play on tour.   As well we should.   All of them (with a few exceptions) are fantastic golfers.

Am I to believe that a good set of skills, lots of practice and fate are the three main drivers of winning?

It goes a lot deeper than that.

Look at The Tiger - in the past he played full-out without fear.

He is now locked up, frozen in fear. The fear of not being as good as he once was.