Penalty for Giving Advice After a Round is Complete

[Fourputt]

In this case, he isn't a "kid", he's a player (see Rule 6), and as a player he, and only he, is responsible for knowing and applying the rules.  If he deferred to a couple of know nothing coaches, that's his choice, but he can't complain after the fact if he was unknowing enough to not fight for himself.

Harsh opinion?  Yes, but golf isn't a touchy-feely game.

[phan52]

My son plays High School Golf.  The format is stroke play, 9 holes.  Seven players from each team, and the team score is the sum of the 5 lowest scores.  The round is played in foursomes, 2 players from each team.  After he had completed his round, and signed his scorecard, my son was watching the following group play the 9th hole.  After his teammate hit his approach onto the green, my son remarked to no one in particular that the his teammate's upcoming putt was "lightning fast".  The opposing coach heard this comment, and insisted that my son be assessed a 2-stroke penalty.  However, since my son had already signed his scorecard, the opposing coach now insisted that he be DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard.  Our team's coach does not know the rules, and did not put up a fight.  My son was then disqualified, over his fervent objections.

I tried to find an example similar to this in the USGA decisions, but could not.  This seems like a patently unfair application of the rule since the 2-stroke penalty (if there even should have been a penalty) happened after the scorecard was signed.

Any idea how this should have been ruled?

When did this happen? Is there an appeal process? Would reinstating your son's original score effect the outcome of the match? This should be able to be corrected.

Edit: Never mind. I just read the original poster's latest post. It appears that he is taking a good course.

The coach needs to at least access the rules and stand up for his players . It's the least he can do.

[iacas]

Kids take cues from their teachers.

And parents. And how they're brought up. And countless other people. C'mon, again, they're sentient beings. They're capable of thinking and acting for themselves.

Does the coach deserve some "blame"? Yeah. Does the player? Also yes.

My kid sister's high school golf team isn't run as stringently as a better program might be.

Mine wasn't well run. I'm not speaking from the experience of having a high-falutin' "high school golf team program." We officiated ourselves and had two coaches to tally up the scores, etc. and serve as committee, van driver, referee, etc.

I knew the Rules back then because they were important to me. I wasn't forced to learn them by my coach. He was terrible. He'd barely break 120. He was, again, a van driver.

If they're not being shown the right way, they're unlikely to pick it up.

You keep saying things like this as if I am making statements that disagree.

I agree with that, just as you agree with what I've actually been saying: there's nothing stopping a kid from looking up and knowing the rules all on his own. Unlikely doesn't mean "impossible." Nobody stopped the player from showing that he was right and should not be DQed… including the player himself.

Their coaches have a responsibility to teach them.

And when they don't, the golfer still has the right (and you could even say the responsibility) to learn on their own. Most high school golf coaches are just van drivers. Expecting them to be rules experts is just silly.

I view this as a failure on their part.

Failure on the part of the coaches does not preclude a simultaneous failure on the part of the golfer. Please re-read what I've typed. I've not said the coaches are blameless.

So as to your premise that the golfer is ultimately responsible for the rules of golf, I totally agree. But that's a mindset that the coaches have to get the kids into and I think it's vital that the coaches know the rules better than their students, both for actually teaching them and as an example.

I disagree that it's a mindset the coaches have to get the kids into. You're asking for pie in the sky stuff. Van drivers are not going to become rules experts.

The kid could have avoided being DQed if he had known the Rules of Golf himself. You agree. Except for "If I were him, I'd have stuck up for myself with the facts of the matter, using the Rules of Golf," that's all I've been saying.

In this case, he isn't a "kid", he's a player (see Rule 6), and as a player he, and only he, is responsible for knowing and applying the rules. If he deferred to a couple of know nothing coaches, that's his choice, but he can't complain after the fact if he was unknowing enough to not fight for himself.

Harsh opinion?  Yes, but golf isn't a touchy-feely game.

That's basically what I've been saying.

The kid didn't know the Rules of Golf and, as such, couldn't arm himself with the facts and stand up for himself.

---

Were I his parent, I would seek to have his score re-instated. It may not affect the outcome of the match, but it will affect his scoring average and some other things.

If they refuse, well again, you pick your battles and that's probably not worth worrying about. It may not even be worth worrying about to get the score re-instated.

The Rules of Golf help players more often than they hurt you. If you play golf, it's your responsibility to know the Rules of the game.

[dkolo]

And parents. And how they're brought up. C'mon, again, they're sentient beings. They're capable of thinking and acting for themselves.

Mine wasn't well run. I'm not speaking from the experience of having a high-falutin' "high school golf team program." We officiated ourselves and had two coaches to tally up the scores, etc. and serve as committee, van driver, referee, etc.

You keep saying things like this as if I am making statements that disagree.

I agree with that, just as you agree with what I've actually been saying: there's nothing stopping a kid from looking up and knowing the rules all on his own.

And when they don't, the golfer still has the right (and you could even say the responsibility) to learn on their own. Most high school golf coaches are just van drivers.

Failure on the part of the coaches does not preclude a failure on the part of the golfer. Please re-read what I've typed. I've not said the coaches are blameless at all.

I disagree that it's a mindset the coaches have to get the kids into. You're asking for pie in the sky stuff. Van drivers are not going to become rules experts.

The kid could have avoided being DQed if he had known the Rules of Golf himself. You agree. Except for "If I were him, I'd have stuck up for myself with the facts of the matter, using the Rules of Golf," that's all I've been saying.

I think we're mostly on the same page, I just feel compelled to cut the kid more slack since I think they should've been taught better. Maybe I'm more lamenting that these high school coaches are  in face just van drivers as opposed to coaches. It's certainly the case with some of the ones I've had encounters with.

[iacas]

I think we're mostly on the same page, I just feel compelled to cut the kid more slack since I think they should've been taught better. Maybe I'm more lamenting that these high school coaches are  in face just van drivers as opposed to coaches. It's certainly the case with some of the ones I've had encounters with.

And I'm a fan of being more self-starting and independent. Perhaps the kid learned to rely on himself more and not on his wimpy, non-knowledgeable coach(es). Good lesson to learn, being self-reliant…

[turtleback]

This is not a direct fit, but close:

8-1/24

Advice Given by Team Coach or Captain

Q.A team competition is being played, and in the conditions the Committee has not authorized captains or coaches to give advice under the Note to Rule 8. A non-playing coach or captain gives advice during a round to one of the members of his team. What is the ruling?

A.There is no penalty. However, the player should take action to stop this irregular procedure. If he does not do so, he should, in equity (Rule 1-4), incur a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play in view of the purpose of Rule 8-1.

Thanks for posting this.  I have to say it is troubling to me that this effectively gives a team (at least) one shot at giving improper advice without penalty.  I'm also not sure what the player can do to stop it.

[Rulesman]

The presumption is that golf is played as an honest game. Penalties are rarely for cheating, usually for mistakes.

[ColinL]

Thanks for posting this.  I have to say it is troubling to me that this effectively gives a team (at least) one shot at giving improper advice without penalty.  I'm also not sure what the player can do to stop it.

The reason I referred earlier to Decision 8-1/24 was to point out that although the player who has finished his round cannot be penalised for offering advice to any of his team still on the course, this does not give those who have finished carte blanche to head out on to the course to advise their team-mates.   Without this Decision, provided those still playing did not ask for any advice, nothing could be done to stop what would clearly be an undesirable situation.   The only way to prevent it is to put the onus on the player who is still on his round to stop it.  So how does he do that? Simply by pointing out to his mate that he's going to cause him  a loss of hole/ two stroke penalty if he doesn't shut up.

Do you remember that Ryder Cup when Seve Ballesteros was charging around the course in his buggy, exhorting his men, telling them what to do and virtually playing every shot for them (and probably being a right pain!)? That was allowed , but  imagine if every European  player as soon as he finished had leapt into a buggy and done the same.

I have, on one occasion when refereeing a match, drawn on the analogy of that Decision to speak to a spectator (never mind a coach) in order to stop him getting in too close too often to a player and  offering  advice.

[rehmwa]

OK, so in this situation where it was a casual comment I think we are agreed there is no penalty but I'm a little confused about one aspect.  What if the kid yelled out to his teammate "Hey, watch out, that putt is faster than it looks."

The teammate never solicited advice so he should not be penalized.  The kid who yelled it out is done with his stipulated round so, according to some of them comments in the thread, HE cannot be assessed the penalty.

So who gets assessed a penalty under what provision of the rules?

That's how I'm reading it.  If the kid was done with the round, he's now just part of the gallery and can yell out "The putt is fast"  or "mashed potatoes" or "BaBa Booey"

Even so, the hypothetical scenario above of a teammate yelling out any advice probably isn't in the spirit of the game even if it's not a penalty per the rules.

Here's how I'd like to see it play out

(The other coache's scenario)

Player A approaches the green for a putt

Player B (who finished an hour ago) loudly comments to stranger in the gallery - "Wow, I had that putt, it's LIGHTNING FAST"

neither player gets a penalty, but it's not really sporting

Player A "HEY, cut it out, I can read my own putts.  Keep it to yourself"

Resolved (clearly I think the 8-1/24 ruling is dead on, not 'close', but near perfectly applicable for intent)

Alternatively (the OPs version)

Player A approaches the green for a putt

Player B (who finished an hour ago) whispers to a neighbor standing and observing - "Wow, I had that putt, it's lightning fast"

no issue in the first place

My problem with the story, is if the coach heard the comment, then the teammate could have heard it too.  High school events are hardly super crowded, and a few guys hanging around the green watching their teammates wrap it up doesn't really cover up chatter.  Even if the other coach didn't know this was not a penalty, I don't have a problem with him objecting to the comment in terms of what's sporting or not.

[nick1998bunker]

Although I can't comment on who is at fault. I find it hard to believe the penalty would go to the player who finished and signed his card. At most maybe to the players who heard the advice. How is it dealt with if a player hears advice from a spectator, say on the PGA tour, or not? As an edit, if he is stating an opinion Intended to basically be assumed as a fact, don't think that's advice/illegal. Same as if you ask someone what the yardage is, the number is not advice, or if your coach watches 3 of your teammates spin one back into the water and comes back to tell you the green is severely sloped back to front, I don't think that is asvice

[David in FL]

Although I can't comment on who is at fault. I find it hard to believe the penalty would go to the player who finished and signed his card. At most maybe to the players who heard the advice. How is it dealt with if a player hears advice from a spectator, say on the PGA tour, or not?

No penalty. The rule only penalizes a player from soliciting advice or offering it.....during their own stipulated round.

[Rulesman]

1) How is it dealt with if a player hears advice from a spectator, say on the PGA tour, or not?

2) if your coach watches 3 of your teammates spin one back into the water and comes back to tell you the green is severely sloped back to front, I don't think that is asvice

1) The player is not penalized. He cannot control the spectators. If the spectator continues and is disturbing the player a marshal may be delegated to ask him to desist or escort him from the course.

2) It depends on exactly what was said and when.

[nick1998bunker]

2) It depends on exactly what was said and when.

Say the back of the green where the pin is is out of view and slopes far away from you to a spot where you will have no chance to get it up and down. The 3 teammates in front of you all caught the slope and went over while your coach watches. He goes back to the tee where you are and tells you that the pin is on the back where the green is severely sloped and it is tucked 5 feet from the edge and there is weeds or whatever over the green. And says that your team mates all hit the middle of the green and went over. He hopes you will realize to play to the front but provided only facts. I don't think that is advice and I don't think that is illegal. In this scenario, I'm not even sure it would be advice if he walked into the player and said I had that putt and it is very fast. From my interpretation of he said hit that putt soft then it would be advice but he didn't.

[Rulesman]

In this scenario, I'm not even sure it would be advice if he walked into the player and said I had that putt and it is very fast. From my interpretation of he said hit that putt soft then it would be advice but he didn't.

That would certainly be advice. The pace of a green is subjective unless a specific stimp was given.

[Shorty]

NIckbunker -  You have a very strange way of looking at things.

You think that a spectator at PGA Tour event who yells something out might put a competitor at risk of a penalty. Seriously, could anything be more ludicrous?

Can you not work out for yourself that a player can't control spectators?

Could you think of anything more unjust in sport  than a player being penalised because someone in the crowd yells out?

By your logic, Tiger Woods MIGHT lose the Masters  because a "patron" yells something. You seek clarification for such a scenario? Really?

[nick1998bunker]

NIckbunker -  You have a very strange way of looking at things. You think that a spectator at PGA Tour event who yells something out might put a competitor at risk of a penalty. Seriously, could anything be more ludicrous? Can you not work out for yourself that a player can't control spectators? Could you think of anything more unjust in sport  than a player being penalised because someone in the crowd yells out? By your logic, Tiger Woods MIGHT lose the Masters  because a "patron" yells something. You seek clarification for such a scenario? Really?

You obviously can't grasp the point of the question, it was asked because it is a very similar scenario to the one described and was supposed to draw a parallel. I knew that he would not be penalized so I was trying to show that it would be "ludicrous" for the player to be penalized. It's called Ike the elenctic method or something. You struggle to think deeper into questions as you've demonstrated in the past and that hurts you

[rehmwa]

You obviously can't grasp the point of the question, it was asked because it is a very similar scenario to the one described and was supposed to draw a parallel. I knew that he would not be penalized so I was trying to show that it would be "ludicrous" for the player to be penalized. It's called Ike the elenctic method or something. You struggle to think deeper into questions as you've demonstrated in the past and that hurts you

I think he was playing acting (the Captain Obvious straight man) just for the sake of assisting you in making your point.

he succeeded

I still don't think that a 'team mate' acting in the role of spectator has the same duty in this regard in terms of intent of the game though.  I recall my high school coach even cautioning us about talking to much about the course at all until EVERYONE was back in.  Just seems to be courteous and sportmanlike.

[socalsharky]

That would certainly be advice. The pace of a green is subjective unless a specific stimp was given.

I submitted this matter to the SCGA.  Here is their response:

In this situation a general statement about the green speed would not be considered giving advice because the green speed can be considered general knowledge. Since your sons round was already over he should not have been disqualified nor given any penalty.