Golfer Bae Sang-Moon in the army now

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin007

Does anyone know, if he had just stayed here would the U.S. have extradited him back to Korea?

I don't think that is one of the conditions for extradition.

As long as he does not set foot in Korea, there is nothing Korea can do about Bae if Bae does not report to the army.

But once he sets foot in Korea, he will be taken into custody and be drafted into the army.

If he tried that I doubt he would be drafted into the army - more likely a term in prison as a draft evader.  Countries with mortal enemies right across their borders do not have the kind of "nice" sensibilities that unthreatened countries might have.

I am still trying to figure out why making millions playing a game internationally is more "special" than the guy who is supporting his family doing construction, or working in a factory.  We certainly never looked at it that way in the US when WE had a draft, and we were never (at least since the days of Pancho Villa) right across the border from an avowed enemy.Cf. Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, etc.  Pretty special guys, but guys who were still expected to do their duty.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukari

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin007

Does anyone know, if he had just stayed here would the U.S. have extradited him back to Korea?

I don't think that is one of the conditions for extradition.

As long as he does not set foot in Korea, there is nothing Korea can do about Bae if Bae does not report to the army.

But once he sets foot in Korea, he will be taken into custody and be drafted into the army.

If he tried that I doubt he would be drafted into the army - more likely a term in prison as a draft evader.  Countries with mortal enemies right across their borders do not have the kind of "nice" sensibilities that unthreatened countries might have.

I am still trying to figure out why making millions playing a game internationally is more "special" than the guy who is supporting his family doing construction, or working in a factory.  We certainly never looked at it that way in the US when WE had a draft, and we were never (at least since the days of Pancho Villa) right across the border from an avowed enemy.Cf. Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, etc.  Pretty special guys, but guys who were still expected to do their duty.

+1.

BTW, I think Bae is from a privileged family.   Government making an exception would have caused a huge outcry.

Making another point about Bae - there are numerous Korean athletes who are competing at world class level and must join the military b/c they can't meet the government requirements (winning a medal in Olympics, e.g.) to avoid draft.   Bae is ranked in the world at what?  Try outside of 100.   There are Korean judo, archery, ping pong and numerous other sports "stars" ranked at top 20 in the world who still have to do their duty.   In Korea, golf athletes are not anywhere near special than the others who have a shot at winning an Olympic medal.   Bae won't even qualify for Rio Olympics today.

[newtogolf]

Your definition might be somewhat different from the ordinary definition.

menial

adjective

1. lowly and sometimes degrading:

menial work.

I agree that is the global definition in this specific case I meant his service in the army wasn't going to be fighting on the front line as a soldier.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by k-troop

Your definition might be somewhat different from the ordinary definition.

menial

adjective

1. lowly and sometimes degrading:

menial work.

I agree that is the global definition in this specific case I meant his service in the army wasn't going to be fighting on the front line as a soldier.

For which, it seems to me, he should be grateful, not complain about having to serve at all.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by k-troop

Your definition might be somewhat different from the ordinary definition.

menial

adjective

1. lowly and sometimes degrading:

menial work.

I agree that is the global definition in this specific case I meant his service in the army wasn't going to be fighting on the front line as a soldier.

For which, it seems to me, he should be grateful, not complain about having to serve at all.

He should be grateful that the law allowed him some flexibility to wait until he is in late 20s to join military.    He used that time judicially to win a couple of PGA tournaments.  I.e, he already benefited from the system.

[nevets88]

PGA Tour OKs exemption for Bae, who faces South Korean military service

Quote:

GAINESVILLE, Va. — Not that it offset the jolt he got last week when the South Korean Military Manpower Administration ruled against him, but Sangmoon Bae learned this week that the PGA Tour was on his side.

The Tour’s Player Advisory Council supported a motion on Bae’s behalf and it was ratified by the Policy Board at a meeting Monday night. In essence, the tour adjusted and reworked its regulations to cover Bae after it was learned the South Korean will have to report later this year for a 21-month military obligation.

“The consensus among the PAC members was, ‘Great. We need to do something.’ He’s in a situation he can’t control,” board member Jason Bohn said.

http://golfweek.com/news/2015/jul/30/pga-tour-sangmoon-bae-south-korea-military-exempt/

[Mac62]

I know this happened to Hogan and others in the past when the US had a draft but I feel bad for the guy.  I'd think he'd do more for South Korea playing golf than doing some menial task in their army for two years.  I have mixed feelings about it, I think it's great that everyone must serve regardless of class or vocation but I also feel that the two years away could ruin the rest of his career and the country isn't at war right now.

Technically they are still at war.  The Korean War was ended by an "Armistice Agreement" in 1953, but there was no formal Peace Treaty signed.  North Korea is a hostile nation with a highly unstable, volatile leader who still seeks reunification of the Koreas (under his rule, of course) and his bluster and rhetoric toward the South (and the U.S.) is almost nonstop.

I don't think any exception should be made for Bae simply because he's a good golfer.  Doing so would create more problems than it would solve in South Korea.  If you let him slide, you let your  star football players slide.  Then you let your best cricket players slide.  Then you let your top college students (future doctors, scientists, etc.) slide.  And so on.  At what point do you draw the line?  Down to where only your middle class and below are required to serve?  Now you're verging on a caste system of sorts.  It's a slippery slope.

Also, there are a couple cultural factors which may be difficult for Americans to understand when considering this issue:

1) In Asian culture, generally speaking, the whole is greater than the individual and there is great pressure to conform rather than stand out.  Individual achievements mean little in comparison to the good of society as a whole, so the thought of "ruining his career" as a professional golfer would hardly be a thought in comparison to the good of the nation.  Additionally, the concept of "filial piety" (respect and duty to your elders), which is a common concept in the culture and many of their religions (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, etc.) places a strong negative stigma upon doing anything which would cause loss of face and/or disgrace/dishonor to your family. Dodging mandatory service to your country would surely be considered less than honorable.  It's quite possible that younger generations, as they become more Westernized, don't look upon it so strongly, but I'm quite sure that their society in general frowns upon it rather severely.

2) The culture in countries with compulsory military service (of which there are many - even "peaceful" countries such as Denmark, Finland, Norway and Switzerland) is different than the culture here in the U.S.  it's something that is simply expected of you and understood that you'll complete it, just as our culture generally expects that you'll graduate from school, get a job and eventually move out of home rather than freeloading off your parents for the rest of your life.  You won't have a lot of free-thinkers standing up and applauding your "conscientious objector" status because the vast majority of your countrymen have fulfilled their commitment (or intend to) - so what makes you think you're so special and above the rest?  Because you want to play golf and be a millionaire rather than serve your legally mandated duty to your country?  Pssshhht - here's your uniform, here's your rifle.  Next!

In American culture, everybody gets a trophy; we "celebrate diversity" and applaud "rugged individualism".  We're not to stigmatize those who are "different" - we have to at least accept them, if not outright empower them.  People confuse "rights" and "privileges", and personal responsibility has (generally speaking) taken a back seat to the "blame game".  Ethics are situational rather than absolute and our society is much less homogeneous than South Korea's.  Not saying everything above is good or bad, it just is.  Given the cultural differences, it's quite understandable that we look at Bae's situation much differently than his own countrymen do.  I doubt there's much sympathy for Bae in South Korea.

[newtogolf]

Technically they are still at war.  The Korean War was ended by an "Armistice Agreement" in 1953, but there was no formal Peace Treaty signed.  North Korea is a hostile nation with a highly unstable, volatile leader who still seeks reunification of the Koreas (under his rule, of course) and his bluster and rhetoric toward the South (and the U.S.) is almost nonstop.

I don't think any exception should be made for Bae simply because he's a good golfer.  Doing so would create more problems than it would solve in South Korea.  If you let him slide, you let your  star football players slide.  Then you let your best cricket players slide.  Then you let your top college students (future doctors, scientists, etc.) slide.  And so on.  At what point do you draw the line?  Down to where only your middle class and below are required to serve?  Now you're verging on a caste system of sorts.  It's a slippery slope.

Also, there are a couple cultural factors which may be difficult for Americans to understand when considering this issue:

1) In Asian culture, generally speaking, the whole is greater than the individual and there is great pressure to conform rather than stand out.  Individual achievements mean little in comparison to the good of society as a whole, so the thought of "ruining his career" as a professional golfer would hardly be a thought in comparison to the good of the nation.  Additionally, the concept of "filial piety" (respect and duty to your elders), which is a common concept in the culture and many of their religions (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, etc.) places a strong negative stigma upon doing anything which would cause loss of face and/or disgrace/dishonor to your family. Dodging mandatory service to your country would surely be considered less than honorable.  It's quite possible that younger generations, as they become more Westernized, don't look upon it so strongly, but I'm quite sure that their society in general frowns upon it rather severely.

2) The culture in countries with compulsory military service (of which there are many - even "peaceful" countries such as Denmark, Finland, Norway and Switzerland) is different than the culture here in the U.S.  it's something that is simply expected of you and understood that you'll complete it, just as our culture generally expects that you'll graduate from school, get a job and eventually move out of home rather than freeloading off your parents for the rest of your life.  You won't have a lot of free-thinkers standing up and applauding your "conscientious objector" status because the vast majority of your countrymen have fulfilled their commitment (or intend to) - so what makes you think you're so special and above the rest?  Because you want to play golf and be a millionaire rather than serve your legally mandated duty to your country?  Pssshhht - here's your uniform, here's your rifle.  Next!

In American culture, everybody gets a trophy; we "celebrate diversity" and applaud "rugged individualism".  We're not to stigmatize those who are "different" - we have to at least accept them, if not outright empower them.  People confuse "rights" and "privileges", and personal responsibility has (generally speaking) taken a back seat to the "blame game".  Ethics are situational rather than absolute and our society is much less homogeneous than South Korea's.  Not saying everything above is good or bad, it just is.  Given the cultural differences, it's quite understandable that we look at Bae's situation much differently than his own countrymen do.  I doubt there's much sympathy for Bae in South Korea.

Great post and I agree with all your points.  I was torn on this issue with Bae because I'm a big fan of Ben Hogan and know that serving in the military during his prime certainly robbed Hogan of some tournament and major wins that might have changed his place in the discussions of golfs GOAT.  In the end I agree that forcing Bae to meet his obligation to their military is the right and fair thing to do for everyone in South Korea.

Hopefully Bae can return to golf as Hogan did and go on to have a great career.

[ccotenj]

[QUOTE name="Yukari" url="/t/83386/golfer-bae-sang-moon-in-the-army-now/18#post_1175556"]   [QUOTE name="colin007" url="/t/83386/golfer-bae-sang-moon-in-the-army-now/18#post_1175445"] Does anyone know, if he had just stayed here would the U.S. have extradited him back to Korea?[/QUOTE] I don't think that is one of the conditions for extradition. As long as he does not set foot in Korea, there is nothing Korea can do about Bae if Bae does not report to the army. But once he sets foot in Korea, he will be taken into custody and be drafted into the army. [/QUOTE] If he tried that I doubt he would be drafted into the army - more likely a term in prison as a draft evader.  Countries with mortal enemies right across their borders do not have the kind of "nice" sensibilities that unthreatened countries might have.   I am still trying to figure out why making millions playing a game internationally is more "special" than the guy who is supporting his family doing construction, or working in a factory.  We certainly never looked at it that way in the US when WE had a draft, and we were never (at least since the days of Pancho Villa) right across the border from an avowed enemy.Cf. Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, etc.  Pretty special guys, but guys who were still expected to do their duty.

+1... heck, even elvis had to serve...

[colin007]

Bae doesn't seem philosophically opposed to serving, as some might feel. He just tried to get out if it and when it fell through he accepted the ruling and complied. If he was truly opposed, he would take his chances staying in the U.S., or he would go to jail for what he believed in instead of serve.

[rkim291968]

Bae doesn't seem philosophically opposed to serving, as some might feel. He just tried to get out if it and when it fell through he accepted the ruling and complied. If he was truly opposed, he would take his chances staying in the U.S., or he would go to jail for what he believed in instead of serve.

That's just Bae's marketing team doing its job.  You are understating what he tried to do.  He ran out of his exemption status and sued to get the exemption delayed.   Had he won and delayed joining military, he'd have gained time to qualify for a naturalized US citizenship.   Many believe he had no intention to join military ever and was just trying to buy time.   Anyway, Bae is not a popular man in Korea despite winning twice in PGA.   I'd not be surprised if he hasn't lost sponsors, ad deals, etc., b/c of his legal stunt.

[sawyerg419]

Agree with Mac62's points.

Anyway he must go to army as long as he keeps his nationality Korean. I'd like to respect his decision whether he takes a break of his golf life.

Rather, I think he can get back the glory and ability after 2 years of military service. Remember South Korea is in war with North Korea.

But should be hard for him to give up all the achievement he piled up. sigh.

[nick1998bunker]

He should be allowed to buy himself out of it

[ccotenj]

He should be allowed to buy himself out of it

ugh... "the i've got a lot more money than the average joe, so i am above the law" solution.... :no:

[turtleback]

He should be allowed to buy himself out of it

Great, then maybe S. Korea could have draft riots like we did in NYC during the Civil War.

[Vinsk]

Great, then maybe S. Korea could have draft riots like we did in NYC during the Civil War.

Quite a stretch if you understand the history of those riots.

[nick1998bunker]

ugh... "the i've got a lot more money than the average joe, so i am above the law" solution.... :no:

Hes not above the law but the law should either be a good law or no law at all. I can garuntee 500,000 USD would go alot farther towards their war efforts than one scrawny little asian dude

[ccotenj]

[quote name="ccotenj" url="/t/83386/golfer-bae-sang-moon-in-the-army-now/0_100#post_1181539"] ugh... "the i've got a lot more money than the average joe, so i am above the law" solution.... :no:

Hes not above the law but the law should either be a good law or no law at all. I can garuntee 500,000 USD would go alot farther towards their war efforts than one scrawny little asian dude[/quote] you greatly underestimate the cultural "cost" of what you propose... no amount of money, given the culture of the country, would make it "worth" allowing someone to buy their way out if they have enough money... since there's nothing in international law that outlaws universal service, who are you to say what law is "a good law" in a sovereign nation that you aren't a citizen of?