The "Stop Conning Yourself" Thread

[Carl3]

On 10/5/2018 at 1:12 PM, hespeler said:

Was playing 9 the other day (I've been trying to break 90 forever).  At around the 7th hole, one of the guys in the foursome says to me, "you probably shoot in the mid to low-80's."  Told him I can't break 90 but thanks.  He couldn't believe it, said I hit the ball way too well for those scores.  This is a refrain I hear a lot, even from my pro.

I told the guy I count every stroke, no mulligans, etc.  He said he does too.

Good post. About 5 or 6 years ago I almost gave up golf. I gave myself 3 years to break 80 or I was going to quit. I started to take the game seriously and was able to achieve my goal that same summer. I give some credit to some motivation I gave myself. A couple of times early in that season I "allowed" myself to take a mulligan whenever I desired to see where I ended up on score. I maybe only took 8 to 10 extra shots, but had dramatic score improvements. The lesson to me was that I had the shots and ability to be a single digit HC, but I just needed to put the work in and have the resolve to get there. That spurred me on. Of course, I did not see those anything more than practice rounds and did not claim these as real scores, but it did show how close I seemed to be at getting to my goal.

Like you, I am astounded and what others think are acceptable actions on the course. I like to putt everything as I have missed 18" putts. However If I am competing against someone and they offer to give me a 4 footer, I may sheepishly accept.

[boogielicious]

9 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

Wrong about positive vs. negative reinforcement pending the student. 

You're correct regarding the person who doesn't do their homework.  I've worked with folks who actually gain major progress in a lesson, then the next time I see them they are right back to their old swing...or worse...they found or heard of a new "tip" that they think supersedes my instruction.  i am sure you've run into this many times.

Lesson 1:  You stink...stop thinking you can do anything....that'll be $80.  Lol.

I don't think anyone is this thread is advocating that statement. Most people came to this site to talk golf and become better golfers. But this thread is about being honest with yourself so you can develop a path to improve. And the members here at The Sand Trap are generally different than the average golfer out there that you describe because they reach out to find out how to get better.

I don't want an instructor to tell me that I'm doing great without telling me what I need to improve on and how to get there. And no one in this thread is saying you have to be negative. You can be constructive in critique. That will help the student more than just being rosy.

[Lihu]

8 hours ago, Carl3 said:

Good post. About 5 or 6 years ago I almost gave up golf. I gave myself 3 years to break 80 or I was going to quit. I started to take the game seriously and was able to achieve my goal that same summer. I give some credit to some motivation I gave myself. A couple of times early in that season I "allowed" myself to take a mulligan whenever I desired to see where I ended up on score. I maybe only took 8 to 10 extra shots, but had dramatic score improvements. The lesson to me was that I had the shots and ability to be a single digit HC, but I just needed to put the work in and have the resolve to get there. That spurred me on. Of course, I did not see those anything more than practice rounds and did not claim these as real scores, but it did show how close I seemed to be at getting to my goal.

Like you, I am astounded and what others think are acceptable actions on the course. I like to putt everything as I have missed 18" putts. However If I am competing against someone and they offer to give me a 4 footer, I may sheepishly accept.

Sometimes people are just encouraging others to play better. Many folks with terrible looking swings do manage to shoot in the 80s or even lower. It’s really not the look, but what happens at impact that really counts.

[Puttin4Dough]

21 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Nope. I’m gonna give you a pass because you simply don’t understand what this thread means.

This. Understand this then offer your thoughts.

I think if we were in a conversation at a bar vs. online, we might find out we agree to a much larger extent.  But please don't tell me I don't understand the meaning of the thread when the topic was about making fun of a guy who claimed to be a 12 hcp because, to me, the thread started off on a negative tone.  I know those guys too, and I write them off as not being serious golfers.

I will state this again...most guys with a shred of humility don't think they're better than they are, and in fact they avoid lessons like the plague for fear they'll have to start from scratch.  One could say that they are conning themselves by taking this tact, and I would agree, but it's not based on ego, it's more based on getting a failing grade...AND knowing they haven't really put the time into progress..

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Puttin4Dough said:

I think if we were in a conversation at a bar vs. online, we might find out we agree to a much larger extent.  But please don't tell me I don't understand the meaning of the thread when the topic was about making fun of a guy who claimed to be a 12 hcp because, to me, the thread started off on a negative tone.  I know those guys too, and I write them off as not being serious golfers.

For the last time, as the guy who created the topic, that's not at all what the topic was about.

You are wrong. Stop.

1 hour ago, Puttin4Dough said:

and in fact they avoid lessons like the plague for fear they'll have to start from scratch.

 

[Vinsk]

On 8/14/2015 at 5:41 PM, iacas said:

So… this thread is about being honest with yourself. Nobody here really knows anyone else's golf game, so we can't call you out. But you can call yourself out.

 

The purpose of this thread is to do just that: to call yourself out. Really give your game a good hard honest look, and if you decide that you've been conning yourself, post about it here. Admit it.

This. 

1 hour ago, Puttin4Dough said:

But please don't tell me I don't understand the meaning of the thread when the topic was about making fun of a guy who claimed to be a 12 hcp

Sorry. You've completely missed what this thread is about. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

This. 

There you go, @Puttin4Dough. The quote was from the first post, where I literally wrote "this thread is about…" and then says what the topic is about.

[MarvChamp]

On 8/14/2015 at 4:41 PM, iacas said:

Dave and I say - and live by - the idea of "not conning ourselves." We don't do it as instructors, as golfers, and hopefully not too much as fathers, husbands… human beings. Far too often people will con themselves into some awfully strange beliefs. That they're not lacking something, or that they're better at something than they really are. That their experiences matter more than other people's, or are generalized and apply to more than just themselves.

I have pondered why I am so hard on myself during and after a round. At first, I thought, "I think I am so much better than I am." That is only part of it; it is an even deeper ego problem. More than just not admitting it, I FEAR admitting how poor a player I am. My self-centered, competitve nature says I have to protect my ego, I think.

The other day, I kind of looked up top pro's percentages of wins compared to tournaments entered. Most LOSE more that 90% of the time (Nicklaus was slightly less and Tiger is off the charts). Golf is seldom beaten by anyone, especially by me.

Anyway, I want to do a little self-talk about this without being morose or morbid about it. On the course, I will accept compliments from others on the good shots because I do hit my share; and accept the others with less negative emotion. I will try to play smart, and to my handicap, which probably will lower it. And just plain old enjoy the fact that, at age 73, I am fit enough to get around the beautiful golf course (good Lord! what else can I realistically expect from myself!?). I guess those are really my simple goals for 2019. Best, -Marv  

[Puttin4Dough]

30 minutes ago, MarvChamp said:

I have pondered why I am so hard on myself during and after a round. At first, I thought, "I think I am so much better than I am." That is only part of it; it is an even deeper ego problem. More than just not admitting it, I FEAR admitting how poor a player I am. My self-centered, competitve nature says I have to protect my ego, I think.

The other day, I kind of looked up top pro's percentages of wins compared to tournaments entered. Most LOSE more that 90% of the time (Nicklaus was slightly less and Tiger is off the charts). Golf is seldom beaten by anyone, especially by me.

Anyway, I want to do a little self-talk about this without being morose or morbid about it. On the course, I will accept compliments from others on the good shots because I do hit my share; and accept the others with less negative emotion. I will try to play smart, and to my handicap, which probably will lower it. And just plain old enjoy the fact that, at age 73, I am fit enough to get around the beautiful golf course (good Lord! what else can I realistically expect from myself!?). I guess those are really my simple goals for 2019. Best, -Marv  

This is down the line of what I'm talking about.  

[Puttin4Dough]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

There you go, @Puttin4Dough. The quote was from the first post, where I literally wrote "this thread is about…" and then says what the topic is about.

The term "conning" is not applicable to that guy.  The appropriate term would be 'blowhard BS'er" who makes-up stuff to impress others knowing it's false.  However, the term "conning oneself" could be applied to those who buy new clubs in attempt to reduce scores.  In that case i would agree with the term.   

 

[colin007]

Conning yourself is that guy who thinks he could blend in among pros on a range at a tour stop and wouldn't stick out like my shorts in middle school sex ed class.

[HJJ003]

5 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Conning yourself is that guy who thinks he could blend in among pros on a range at a tour stop and wouldn't stick out like my shorts in middle school sex ed class.

Oh the things I wish I never read...

[Vinsk]

On 1/4/2019 at 8:18 PM, Puttin4Dough said:

but it's not based on ego,

Ok.

11 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

Golf instructors are like car salesman....now that I think folks might agree with, but it's not because they're bad instructors in many cases because golf is a focused, individual, personal achievement game.  A bad shot is a reflection upon one's ability.  Guys tend to be more egotistical.   

Got it.

[Lihu]

7 hours ago, colin007 said:

Conning yourself is that guy who thinks he could blend in among pros on a range at a tour stop and wouldn't stick out like my shorts in middle school sex ed class.

 

6 hours ago, HJJ003 said:

Oh the things I wish I never read...

OMG, this thread was soooo hijacked, because all I can see now is a middle aged 6’5” 260 pound bald headed man wearing undersized shorts 🤪

And that’s no “con” 😂

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

 

OMG, this thread was soooo hijacked, because all I can see now is a middle aged 6’5” 260 pound bald headed man wearing undersized shorts 🤪

And that’s no “con” 😂

It was hijacked by some guy who apparently uses the word ‘sycophants’ but doesn’t know what ‘conning’ means.

[boogielicious]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

It was hijacked by some guy who apparently uses the word ‘sycophants’ but doesn’t know what ‘conning’ means.

😀

[Lihu]

6 hours ago, Vinsk said:

It was hijacked by some guy who apparently uses the word ‘sycophants’ but doesn’t know what ‘conning’ means.

Or this person is so precise and nitpicking with the English (which I’m not) that he had to point out that the word is not being used correctly?

I had to look up the precise definition of “conning”. The word “con” seems to indicate a deception occurs, or a fraudulent intention. Most people don’t go around technically deceiving themselves, mainly because a normal person isn’t really capable of doing so?

However, most of us think we’re better than we are because we have nothing to compare ourselves to and have short term memories about experiences that proved ourselves wrong. We remember a lot of things the way we want to remember them rather than what actually transpired.

That’s not purposeful deception at all, it’s just “selective memory”.

Had to look this up to peice together why an educated person capable of using such words and being so precise with language could argue so much against something the rest of us kind of “take for granted”.

I’m thinking “of course we con ourselves” @Puttin4Dough, we have selective memory and don’t watch what we do during our swings and feel isn’t real much less our “gut feeling” that we’re “good at golf if only we fix this one thing”

We suck at golf and we know it. Some people don’t, and this thread is for them. Or should be.

22 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

The term "conning" is not applicable to that guy.  The appropriate term would be 'blowhard BS'er" who makes-up stuff to impress others knowing it's false.  However, the term "conning oneself" could be applied to those who buy new clubs in attempt to reduce scores.  In that case i would agree with the term.   

“Selective memory” makes us think we’re better than we actually are...😁

That’s the use of the phrase  “conning ourselves”.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Lihu
I’m an engineer, not an English major :-P

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Or this person is so precise and nitpicking with the English (which I’m not) that he had to point out that the word is not being used correctly?

I had to look up the precise definition of “conning”. The word “con” seems to indicate a deception occurs, or a fraudulent intention. Most people don’t go around technically deceiving themselves, mainly because a normal person isn’t really capable of doing so?

@Lihu, he wasn't nitpicking with the imprecise language, and the way I've used the word is correct. He was pretty clear in how he was misunderstanding the topic (the "positive" and "negative" attitudes, specifically of an instructor toward a student), so there's no further need to discuss that stuff. By definition, it's off topic.