NHL 2015-16 Season

[mcanadiens]

11 minutes ago, billchao said:

P.K. Subban for Shea Weber

The age difference makes me nervous. Weber is 31. Subban is 27. 

[billchao]

Just now, mcanadiens said:

The age difference makes me nervous. Weber is 31. Subban is 27. 

Defensemen don't age the same way forwards do, but Weber's contract is awful. Nashville is going to get creamed if he ever retires early.

They don't really have the same style either. Interested to see how this pans out.

[Warren Zevon]

Yeah, Chiarelli really doesn't care for the draft class of 2010, that's for sure.  

[mcanadiens]

4 minutes ago, billchao said:

Defensemen don't age the same way forwards do, but Weber's contract is awful. Nashville is going to get creamed if he ever retires early.

They don't really have the same style either. Interested to see how this pans out.

Yeah. If they were forwards I'd probably be a bit beyond nervous.

[tdiii]

Stunned to see the Subban trade.  Webber was pretty much exposed by the Sharks as being a liability defensively (conceding I don't watch the Preds day in and day out and he could have been hurt or something).  Giving up Subban for an older guy who already is on the down side just strikes me as nuts.  I have to wonder if there's something going on behind the scenes. 

Habs nation in full meltdown mode:

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2016/6/29/12061540/pk-subban-trade-analysis-shea-weber-montreal-canadiens-worst-trade-ever-fire-bergevin

Edited June 29, 2016 by tdiii

[Ernest Jones]

8 minutes ago, tdiii said:

Stunned to see the Subban trade.  Webber was pretty much exposed by the Sharks as being a liability defensively (conceding I don't watch the Preds day in and day out and he could have been hurt or something).  Giving up Subban for an older guy who already is on the down side just strikes me as nuts.  I have to wonder if there's something going on behind the scenes. 

I think that given the team leadership and balls that Webber brings  to the table, this is a win for the Habs IF they land some offence and go for it, but if they don't, it'll be a lose in 2-3 years as Webber's age catches up to him and Subban continues to rise. 

Rumour is that Subban was an issue in the room. 

There better be some more moves, and substantial ones, for this to make any sense. This has to be an all or nothing move as Webber's expiration date is looming. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

and Stamkos re-signed with the Lightning.

A friend suggested it may be a "sign and trade" type situation.

The blood clots could make that a bad contract, even though it seems like a good one right now.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, Warren Zevon said:

Yeah, Chiarelli really doesn't care for the draft class of 2010, that's for sure.  

Yea, those top 2 players that are currently top players in the league were totally expendable.

My thought is this is going to turn out to be a good hockey trade. Larsson isn't flashy but he is a solid workhorse who is good against top competition and gets the puck moving the right direction. His o zone start % was one of the worst in the league (actually I think it was the worst, just ahead of partner Andy Greene) but had +12% o zone finishes. NJ had a pitiful offense that was awful at generating shots, so his corsi #s aren't great, but I expect him to put up more points on the Oilers.

I'm excited to pick up Hall and sad to see Larsson go at the same time. He was easily my favorite Devil. He is definitely underrated. The Devils' D is not going to be the same without him.

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

I think that given the team leadership and balls that Webber brings  to the table, this is a win for the Habs IF they land some offence and go for it, but if they don't, it'll be a lose in 2-3 years as Webber's age catches up to him and Subban continues to rise. 

Rumour is that Subban was an issue in the room. 

That could help explain it. This deal is a real head scratcher otherwise. On the ice it is obvious who the better player is, but there is a lot going on behind the scenes that fans aren't privvy to.

Subban did have that big hold out early in his career so maybe there is something to the rumors.

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

A friend suggested it may be a "sign and trade" type situation.

The blood clots could make that a bad contract, even though it seems like a good one right now.

I'm trying to understand why a team would want Stamkos for the 8th year that badly that they would want Tampa to sign him and then trade assets for it? I don't see the advantage in trading a real asset for an additional year on the declining years of Stamkos' career.

I thought blood clots were one of those freak things that just happens? I didn't realize that was indicative of a chronic health problem.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, billchao said:

I'm trying to understand why a team would want Stamkos for the 8th year that badly that they would want Tampa to sign him and then trade assets for it? I don't see the advantage in trading a real asset for an additional year on the declining years of Stamkos' career.

Because they could get the cap hit down. Eight years from now the cap will likely be higher, and teams leverage short term gains all the time… I'm not saying I agree with him. Just playing devil's advocate. No pun intended.

6 minutes ago, billchao said:

I thought blood clots were one of those freak things that just happens? I didn't realize that was indicative of a chronic health problem.

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/in-my-blood/

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/pascal-dupuis-penguins-comeback/

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/2016-5-30-pascal-dupuis-penguins-blood-clots/

Thomas Vokoun

http://www.si.com/edge/2014/12/16/blood-clots-pose-deadly-threat-to-athletes

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/more-hockey-players-being-diagnosed-with-blood-clots-than-ever-1.2976686

[Ernest Jones]

Now that the shock factor is subsiding, I think this was a good move by the Habs. Webber and Subban's production is very similar in terms of points, but Webber provides leadership and toughness far beyond what PK provided. In short, he gives the Habs the same production as PK plus the balls of solid steel the we lost when we let Prust go. To get that compete level without losing any productions is a good thing, better than giving a roster spot to a one dimensional "tough guy". This way we get a tough guy without losing a roster spot. 

[mcanadiens]

2 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Now that the shock factor is subsiding, I think this was a good move by the Habs. Webber and Subban's production is very similar in terms of points, but Webber provides leadership and toughness far beyond what PK provided. In short, he gives the Habs the same production as PK plus the balls of solid steel the we lost when we let Prust go. To get that compete level without losing any productions is a good thing, better than giving a roster spot to a one dimensional "tough guy". This way we get a tough guy without losing a roster spot. 

That sounds good and that's why I'm not jumping off a cliff right now.

Even on D, you worry about how much is left when they go over 30.

[billchao]

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

Because they could get the cap hit down. Eight years from now the cap will likely be higher, and teams leverage short term gains all the time… I'm not saying I agree with him. Just playing devil's advocate. No pun intended.

Yea I get it, I just don't agree with it either. I don't see what Stamkos gets out of the deal either, higher pay on shorter term is better for him.

Thanks for sharing the articles, too. I didn't realize it was that big of a deal.

1 minute ago, mcanadiens said:

Even on D, you worry about how much is left when they go over 30.

Guys lose their speed and have to rely on better decision-making and positional play. Not a big problem for better players, huge problem for guys that depend purely on their athleticism to make up for mistakes. Weber is not going to be as good as he was 10 years ago but he's still going to be good... at least for a few more years.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, billchao said:

Yea I get it, I just don't agree with it either. I don't see what Stamkos gets out of the deal either, higher pay on shorter term is better for him.

8 * 8.5 = 68

7 * 9.5 = 66.5

That's all I'm saying (or he's saying).

I think he intends to stay in Tampa. And that Tampa intends on him staying there.

[billchao]

Spoiler

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

8 * 8.5 = 68

7 * 9.5 = 66.5

That's all I'm saying (or he's saying).

PV = FV / (1+r)

Your friend didn't study Money and Banking? 

 

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think he intends to stay in Tampa. And that Tampa intends on him staying there.

Agreed.

[Ernest Jones]

12 minutes ago, billchao said:

Yea I get it, I just don't agree with it either. I don't see what Stamkos gets out of the deal either, higher pay on shorter term is better for him.

Thanks for sharing the articles, too. I didn't realize it was that big of a deal.

Guys lose their speed and have to rely on better decision-making and positional play. Not a big problem for better players, huge problem for guys that depend purely on their athleticism to make up for mistakes. Weber is not going to be as good as he was 10 years ago but he's still going to be good... at least for a few more years.

Remember Esa Tikkanen? Dude was clutch even when he had no legs left. Just knew where to be long before anyone else thought to go there. Some guys just see the ice from a higher altitude. Like Markov, he's not the Markov of old and you need to manage his minutes but he can still control the pace of a game and that is huge when it comes to Defence. 

[tdiii]

Twitter is annhihalitng the Habs for this trade.  Rightly so.  You folks who are finding a way to justify the trade should read this article, which lies out in precise detail all the reasons it makes sense:  http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2016/6/29/12061824/a-justification-for-the-p-k-subban-vs-shea-weber-trade-what-the-****-is-going-on

[Warren Zevon]

13 hours ago, billchao said:

Yea, those top 2 players that are currently top players in the league were totally expendable.

My thought is this is going to turn out to be a good hockey trade. Larsson isn't flashy but he is a solid workhorse who is good against top competition and gets the puck moving the right direction. His o zone start % was one of the worst in the league (actually I think it was the worst, just ahead of partner Andy Greene) but had +12% o zone finishes. NJ had a pitiful offense that was awful at generating shots, so his corsi #s aren't great, but I expect him to put up more points on the Oilers.

I'm excited to pick up Hall and sad to see Larsson go at the same time. He was easily my favorite Devil. He is definitely underrated. The Devils' D is not going to be the same without him.

That could help explain it. This deal is a real head scratcher otherwise. On the ice it is obvious who the better player is, but there is a lot going on behind the scenes that fans aren't privvy to.

Subban did have that big hold out early in his career so maybe there is something to the rumors.

I'm trying to understand why a team would want Stamkos for the 8th year that badly that they would want Tampa to sign him and then trade assets for it? I don't see the advantage in trading a real asset for an additional year on the declining years of Stamkos' career.

I thought blood clots were one of those freak things that just happens? I didn't realize that was indicative of a chronic health problem.

I'll miss Taylor Hall.  He's got an attitude, for sure, but can really drive the offense better than most wingers.  He has his share of flaws, for sure, but I'm more confident in NJ helping him develop than I ever would be in the Oilers getting it done.  

I guess my only gripe about the trade is that it was straight up one for one. Like many Oiler fans, I figured he'd be worth a lot more.  

[iacas]