Offset in irons help or hindrance to your game?

[Mike Boatright]

What's your take I find it to go left up in my stance and straight back in my stance vs my blades which are more neutral and allow me to hold it off and do what I want. The recurve bow in hunting is far superior to a standard bow according to the hunting experts it has more torque etc.. Could physics in head design allow a player to be better like the bow or does it just allow the golfer to make a sloppy swing an not care?

[boogielicious]

I think you are overthinking it. There are so many other factors in irons that have far more impact than offset.

[saevel25]

What's your take I find it to go left up in my stance and straight back in my stance vs my blades which are more neutral and allow me to hold it off and do what I want.

There is nothing similar about offset in irons and recurve tech in a bow.

Recurve is designed to already be in tension due to how it is strung. Offset doesn't store extra energy for the club to use.

As for offset. If you compare MB clubs which have very minimal offset to GI clubs which have a lot of offset. Basically you are talking about a very very small difference anyways.

Just for fun. If you take 75 mph clubhead speed for a 7 iron. Lets say you have 1/10th of an inch difference between a blade iron versus a game improvement iron. This is a typical offset difference.

The clubhead is moving at 1323 inches per second at impact. 75 MPH x 1.47 conversion factor x 12 in per ft.

All that offset does is delay contact by 0.075 milliseconds. 0.10 in / 1323 in/second

Basically it's impossible for you to do anything in that amount of time. All offset does is typically make a golfer aim the club more left.

[Hardspoon]

Just for fun. If you take 75 mph clubhead speed for a 7 iron. Lets say you have 1/10th of an inch difference between a blade iron versus a game improvement iron. This is a typical offset difference.

The clubhead is moving at 1323 inches per second at impact. 75 MPH x 1.47 conversion factor x 12 in per ft.

All that offset does is delay contact by 0.075 milliseconds. 0.10 in / 1323 in/second

Basically it's impossible for you to do anything in that amount of time. All offset does is typically make a golfer aim the club more left.

This is intriguing (to me).  I've heard three basic arguments about how offset irons "help" golfers with poor mechanics:

1. Let the hands get further in front of the clubhead at impact
2. Allowing more time for the face to square up at impact
3. Moving the CoG away from the shaft

Your math seems to indicate that given the incredibly short timescale, offset doesn't actually change impact condition...so #1 and #2 are basically not true (not to mention the fact that offset clubs are marketing as a "slice cure", when they would only help the face close further).

I definitely agree with your conclusion that 0.075 milliseconds is too short for a player to consciously do anything, so the real question is whether the "closing rate" of the clubface is fast enough to let even three times that offset (JPX-EZ 4-iron has 0.299" offset) make a difference in the face angle at impact solely because the offset .

Hmmm.  I couldn't find any articles claiming that offset is basically irrelevant to impact...but I also couldn't find any that show numbers proving that it is.  Some quick "napkin" calculations gave me numbers ranging from 0.25 degrees to basically 0 degrees for the change in face angle that could be caused by offset...which seems negligible.

Sorry if this is getting too in-depth; this kind of thing (physics disproving a common misconception) is right up my alley.

[saevel25]

Hmmm.  I couldn't find any articles claiming that offset is basically irrelevant to impact...but I also couldn't find any that show numbers proving that it is.  Some quick "napkin" calculations gave me numbers ranging from 0.25 degrees to basically 0 degrees for the change in face angle that could be caused by offset...which seems negligible.

Sorry if this is getting too in-depth; this kind of thing (physics disproving a common misconception) is right up my alley.

I am not sure what a typical rate of closure is for an amateur golfer.

Yea, I am going to say the effect is nothing at all in terms of how degrees closed.

I looked at Rory's swing once. From sports science his downswing lasts 0.234 seconds. Only 1/3rd of that is from A6 to A7. At A6 he has about 60 degrees left to close the clubface to make it square at impact. Though he typically has an open clubface due to his draw. I would say Rory's rate of closure is in the 650-750 degrees per second range.

So even for a high rate of closure he has. If you take an offset difference of 2/10ths of a degree. So lets say double my example, which would be A LOT of offset. Rory would see only 1/10th a degree closure in the clubface.

For amateurs I am sure it is much lower.

As for CG location. It does move it back from the hosel. So I presume it increases MOI to some degree. It's probably minimal as well.

[Lihu]

What's your take I find it to go left up in my stance and straight back in my stance vs my blades which are more neutral and allow me to hold it off and do what I want. The recurve bow in hunting is far superior to a standard bow according to the hunting experts it has more torque etc.. Could physics in head design allow a player to be better like the bow or does it just allow the golfer to make a sloppy swing an not care?

It's annoying at address, so my playing set only has two clubs with offset (ping i20) that I almost never use except off the tee. Doesn't really affect my shot so much, but only the mental part.

Not sure that the bow analogy is the same, but I think you mean Compound versus Recurve. I prefer using a recurve bow because it's more of a challenge, but if I need to take down game I'll use a compound bow even though I am only making the kill from 20 yards or less. The compound bow allows you to hold for tens of seconds, but a relatively light 42 pound recurve would be difficult to hold for more than ten seconds. I use a 50 pound PSE Talon and a 48 pound Black Widow Spider with string silencers, and they still make noise. My PSE Stinger has more than a 300fps and the possibility of anything jumping the string is very low along with the fact that it is about 4 dB more silent on release. The compounds are also about 10" shorter than the shortest recurves (Black Widow).

I prefer recurve as well, but I can see myself missing the ideal kill zone partly because I used to do a lot of 3D target shooting and missed with regularity. I rarely missed with a compound bow even though the shooting line is 5 to 20 yards further away.

My archery focus was on Olympic style 30m, 50m, 70m and 90m target practice, but enjoyed playing in all kinds of other types of tournaments. Thus, the hunting equipment which I maxed out with stabilizers and such. . .

I don't see any comparable golf equipment analogy to "recurve versus compound". There's no technology that would be allowed by USGA, and even non-conforming equipment does not seem to be that radically different, yet.

[jcjim]

Offset does one thing, it gives a little help getting the ball up, a higher trajectory..Couple the offset with more weight in the soul and you have a bit more traj.

[Lihu]

Offset does one thing, it gives a little help getting the ball up, a higher trajectory..Couple the offset with more weight in the soul and you have a bit more traj.

Probably more of a setup thing then?

[Hardspoon]

Offset does one thing, it gives a little help getting the ball up, a higher trajectory.

How does it accomplish that?  Are you suggesting that the offset decreases AoA and thus launches the ball higher?

I guess that theoretically could be true, but as @saevel25 described above, it doesn't seem like there is enough "delay" between the shaft and the face to change (in a substantial way) any aspect of how the face is delivered to the ball.

[saevel25]

Offset does one thing, it gives a little help getting the ball up, a higher trajectory..Couple the offset with more weight in the soul and you have a bit more traj.

I think it depends on the golfer. In theory the offset should get the hands more infront of the ball. It depends on how the club is delivered. Still you are only talking about 1/10th to 2/10th of a inch difference. It's not significant at all. The ball only cares where the CG is with regard to contact. So the CG isn't further back in terms of impact. It's just further back in terms of where the hosel is.

[Mike Boatright]

I was refereeing to those modern bows with all the gizmos vs say and old wooden bow the Indians would use it was just an anology. My take is 40 grams less weight in a driver head can increase clubhead speed by 15 mph so the design of the head can make a huge a difference just like cg. Offset does the work for you with a sloppy less than ideal impact vs blades making you do all the work.Stated by saevel25 I guess it makes no difference at all he's done the math so maybe it's just mental?

[mvmac]

What's your take I find it to go left up in my stance and straight back in my stance vs my blades which are more neutral and allow me to hold it off and do what I want. The recurve bow in hunting is far superior to a standard bow according to the hunting experts it has more torque etc.. Could physics in head design allow a player to be better like the bow or does it just allow the golfer to make a sloppy swing an not care?

No club allows golfers to get away with a sloppy swings

There are some pros that use irons with lots of offset, some that use irons with very little, most are somewhere in between.

[saevel25]

My take is 40 grams less weight in a driver head can increase clubhead speed by 15 mph so the design of the head can make a huge a difference just like cg. Offset does the work for you with a sloppy less than ideal impact vs blades making you do all the work

Stated by saevel25 I guess it makes no difference at all he's done the math so maybe it's just mental?

Umm, clubhead weight is not what has been talked about in this thread. Offset is.

That research has already been solved. Check out the chart. It's not really 15 mph. Still, the optimal range for driver weight is 170-230. There is a reason why companies make driver heads around the 200 gram mark.

You can see this in the history of golf clubs over the past 2 decades. Some brands come out with a huge amount of offset only to retract that in the next model out meant for the same market. Really, it's a confidence thing and a visual thing.

[Hardspoon]

I was refereeing to those modern bows with all the gizmos vs say and old wooden bow the Indians would use it was just an anology.

Everything I know about archery was learned from the Elder Scrolls series, so I've intentionally stayed away from that discussion!

My take is 40 grams less weight in a driver head can increase clubhead speed by 15 mph so the design of the head can make a huge a difference just like cg.

Yeah - head design definitely can...what I was wondering is whether simply displacing the same head backwards (that's all that offset really does) can make a difference.

Offset does the work for you with a sloppy less than ideal impact vs blades making you do all the work.

Does it really?  I think you might be conflating two separate issues - the reason blades are less forgiving of "less than ideal" impact (that's being generous if you saw my swing) has to do with the actual design of the head.  I'm no expert, but I've done a bit of poking around, and I can't see any source/article that explains how a 0.3" offset can actually change impact conditions.

[billchao]

Offset does one thing, it gives a little help getting the ball up, a higher trajectory..Couple the offset with more weight in the soul and you have a bit more traj.

Clubs with more offset tend to launch higher easier, but it's not due to the offset. Generally, if a club is designed with more offset, it is aimed more towards the GI category, so it is designed with the CoG lower and back, more perimeter weighting, etc., all things that affect launch.

[saevel25]

Does it really?  I think you might be conflating two separate issues - the reason blades are less forgiving of "less than ideal" impact (that's being generous if you saw my swing) has to do with the actual design of the head.  I'm no expert, but I've done a bit of poking around, and I can't see any source/article that explains how a 0.3" offset can actually change impact conditions.

The primary thing is all clubs have offset. So it's not like it's truly 0.3" you are comparing. It's the difference which would probably be half of that. So it's even less important when you look at actually comparing clubs.

Clubs with more offset tend to launch higher easier, but it's not due to the offset. Generally, if a club is designed with more offset, it is aimed more towards the GI category, so it is designed with the CoG lower and back, more perimeter weighting, etc., all things that affect launch.

I don't physically see how that works. All it is doing is adding a bit of leeway for the hands to be more forward. In the end, the club still strikes the ball on the face. The CG location isn't going to change relative to that because you happen to move the face forward or back. It just changes the relationship with the hosel.

[billchao]

I don't physically see how that works. All it is doing is adding a bit of leeway for the hands to be more forward. In the end, the club still strikes the ball on the face. The CG location isn't going to change relative to that because you happen to move the face forward or back. It just changes the relationship with the hosel.

Re-read what I wrote, Matt :-)

[saevel25]

Re-read what I wrote, Matt

Ah gotcha. I just happen to link Offset with the other stuff you listed. I thought you were saying offset helps attribute those things. Instead it's just because they happen to be in the same subgroup of clubs meant for high handicappers.