Proper Grip Pressure (It's Firmer than You Might Think)

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

All I can tell you is what I do and feel, I'm not talking in the abstract.  I don't feel 100 pounds of force on any swing.  There may well be 100 lbs of force, but it's irrelevant to focus upon.

It's not irrelevant. If the club exerts 100 pounds of force, and you don't exert the same or more, the club will fly out of your hands.

I don't really care what you think you feel. I care about what's actually happening.

6 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Let me ask you this:  If you were asked to pick up a 5 lb weight, you need to lift a "dead weight" in your direction.  If that same weight is on a string, and I asked you to swing the weight like a tether ball by turning your body in circle, using centrifugal force, it's still 5 pounds....but the revolving around your body on a wider arc based on body turn.  That negates the weight because the weight is moving in the same direction, not towards you or away, which of course would cause problems.  The weight will feel nearly weightless.

No.

[Golflivesmatter]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's not.

My club pro hits about 50 balls with his left hand only during warm-up, as well as a guy who's on track to get his PGA card.  My pro teaches folks to swing with their left-hand only with the lightest grip possible to relax, to allow the wrist to easily release, and learn body rotation.. He teaches this way because right-handed folks naturally try to force / manipulate the club with their right hand which deflects the natural arc, basic physics of a golf swing.  Hey, maybe others play very well by activating their right hand, but it's not part of any thought for me.

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's not irrelevant. If the club exerts 100 pounds of force, and you don't exert the same or more, the club will fly out of your hands.

I don't really care what you think you feel. I care about what's actually happening.

No.

You guys are feisty on here...that's great!  But really?  You don't care what someone relates they are doing?  OK whatever.  Have I seen you on tour?  What are your credentials?  

[iacas]

Just now, Golflivesmatter said:

My club pro hits about 50 balls with his left hand only during warm-up, as well as a guy who's on track to get his PGA card.  My pro teaches folks to swing with their left-hand only with the lightest grip possible to relax, to allow the wrist to easily release, and learn body rotation.. He teaches this way because right-handed folks naturally try to force / manipulate the club with their right hand which deflects the natural arc, basic physics of a golf swing.  Hey, maybe others play very well by activating their right hand, but it's not part of any thought for me.

Okay. You win.

You have a whole heck of a lot of what people say, despite the fact that not one person with two hands would opt to swing the golf club using only the last three fingers on their left hand.

You have "physics" (which isn't a science, apparently) on your side, too, but it's some weird version of physics wherein swinging a five pound weight around your body makes it "weightless."

You have what you think you feel on your side. You have generalities about how "right-handed folks naturally" all do something.

Me? I've just got experience having taught many, many people. I've got recognition. A better golf game. Data. Science from this cosmos. Again, I care what the best players actually do in a golf swing, what's actually happening in a golf swing. I do not care about what someone thinks they do, what someone thinks they feel, etc.

9 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

You guys are feisty on here...that's great!  But really?  You don't care what someone relates they are doing?  OK whatever.  Have I seen you on tour?  What are your credentials?  

For the last time… I care what people are actually doing.

And they're not holding onto the club like it's a baby bird. Not at all. Not on a full swing. Maybe tapping in a putt.

[Golflivesmatter]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Okay. You win.

You have a whole heck of a lot of what people say, despite the fact that not one person with two hands would opt to swing the golf club using only the last three fingers on their left hand.

You have "physics" (which isn't a science, apparently) on your side, too, but it's some weird version of physics wherein swinging a five pound weight around your body makes it "weightless."

You have what you think you feel on your side. You have generalities about how "right-handed folks naturally" all do something.

Me? I've just got experience having taught many, many people. I've got recognition. A better golf game. Data. Science from this cosmos. Again, I care what the best players actually do in a golf swing, what's actually happening in a golf swing. I do not care about what someone thinks they do, what someone thinks they feel, etc.

Let's not get into experience of helping, coaching others. I was taught by a now Golf Magazine Top 100 instructor along with my best friend who was #2 man on his golf team.  I went from shooting a zillion to high 80's in one summer.  I played collegiate golf.  I've helped many folks on my teams, as well as those who've been subject to crack-pot golf pro's who make a living off of over-teaching to the point their pupil could barely swing the club due to 100's of instructions..."don't do this...that's wrong...do that...think about this".  Other guys on here know exactly what I mean.  

I can't even imagine telling someone to think about 100 LBS of force...it's beyond useless information.  Besides, I believe folks can figure out how much pressure to apply to hold a club to keep it from flying down range.  They don't need you to tell them.  Maybe consider letting folks find out for themselves?  Experiment?  Then there's the Arm Swing thread. OMG...it's like I'm in the Twilight Zone of what NOT to do.  

If you're goal is to attack everyone on here about anything to do with the golf swing you're doing a disservice to the game...and bullying folks into submission will drive away folks from this forum.    

[boogielicious]

27 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Let's not get into experience of helping, coaching others. I was taught by a now Golf Magazine Top 100 instructor along with my best friend who was #2 man on his golf team.  I went from shooting a zillion to high 80's in one summer.  I played collegiate golf.  I've helped many folks on my teams, as well as those who've been subject to crack-pot golf pro's who make a living off of over-teaching to the point their pupil could barely swing the club due to 100's of instructions..."don't do this...that's wrong...do that...think about this".  Other guys on here know exactly what I mean.  

I can't even imagine telling someone to think about 100 LBS of force...it's beyond useless information.  Besides, I believe folks can figure out how much pressure to apply to hold a club to keep it from flying down range.  They don't need you to tell them.  Maybe consider letting folks find out for themselves?  Experiment?  Then there's the Arm Swing thread. OMG...it's like I'm in the Twilight Zone of what NOT to do.  

If you're goal is to attack everyone on here about anything to do with the golf swing you're doing a disservice to the game...and bullying folks into submission will drive away folks from this forum.    

And you are discussing grip pressure with this guy below. He is not attacking you. Erik is presenting his considerable experience teaching, studying and coaching golfers. But you are not reading what he is saying. Just because he disagrees with you, doesn’t mean he is attacking you. Please understand that point. He has taught thousands of golfers.

You are on a forum, in a section called Instruction and Playing Tips. Folks read this section of The Sand Trap to get help. Remember that too.

 

 

[onthehunt526]

@iacas,

I have a question. The grip pressure is definitely firmer than even I thought. 

Where is the most of the pressure coming from? Is it in the palm? In the fingers?

Lee Trevino once said at the top of the backswing, it felt like he was firmer with the last three fingers of the left. Would it be plausible that his right hand firms up as well?

[Vinsk]

3 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Let's not get into experience of helping, coaching others.

Your only wise move so far. Maybe you should research @iacas‘s credentials. Your top 100 list? Yeah he’s on that. Authored a book about golf (Lowest Score Wins), coaches college level? Yep. Pros? Yep...done that too. Helped developed an entire golf instruction program? He did. Nevermind he holds a couple of degrees as well...oh...and if you think he’s got a marketing angle? Yeah...he gives out free advice. Free. 100% true, no 1000%. 

Look, you’re not being attacked. We all here are very passionate and motivated to help students/weekend warriors, low Hcp and scratch golfers whatever they may be. Please try to read what is being said and keep an open mind to learning new things.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Vinsk

[Golflivesmatter]

4 hours ago, boogielicious said:

And you are discussing grip pressure with this guy below. He is not attacking you. Erik is presenting his considerable experience teaching, studying and coaching golfers. But you are not reading what he is saying. Just because he disagrees with you, doesn’t mean he is attacking you. Please understand that point. He has taught thousands of golfers.

You are on a forum, in a section called Instruction and Playing Tips. Folks read this section of The Sand Trap to get help. Remember that too.

 

 

I'm pretty sure I got a lot more hate mail so I'll respond in one reply.  

[iacas]

I don’t even care about “qualifications.” If you’re a nobody, but have good information and insights and respond to points made and argue your side well, that’s awesome. I’ll listen and engage and discuss with you.

If you say swinging a five pound weight around makes it weightless… I feel differently.

Also, just stick to discussing the topic. Not the meta, not listing qualifications, not the unrelated or off topic stuff, etc.

If you’re a nobody with good information then you’re not a nobody. You’re somebody worth talking to.

[mvmac]

8 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I can't even imagine telling someone to think about 100 LBS of force...it's beyond useless information. 

No one is telling a student to think about that.

Knowing it happens is important otherwise you believe misinformation like "swing with a loose grip" when no one good does that.

8 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Where is the most of the pressure coming from? Is it in the palm? In the fingers?

Fingers.

[Valleygolfer]

2 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

OK...enough of the back / forth.

I follow Ernest Jones and Percy Boomer's methods (both out of the 1930's and 40's) ,"LearnTheRealSwing" videos by a Canadian Pro, Mike Malaska, Erika Larkin videos, Paul Wilson, and Robert Shave video teachings based on Mehlhorn's method. They teach about feeling the club and avoiding mechanics, letting the body swing the club.  Sure, there are a few prerequisites like decent grip technique, balanced stance, and body rotation like one is "turning in a barrel" from the waist down.  But beyond that It's not that complicated, just subtle "refinements".  I'm a living example.  I suggest folks watch the Canadian Pro's video about people who've never hit a ball.  It's astounding.  I was wary of his approach until it transformed my swing.  

The path to excellent golf is not accomplished by knowing the swing.  If that were the case there would be very few folks shooting over 80.  PGA Tour events would have 755,000 entries.  The major missing link  is letting the body calibrate to the club's weight.  I can stand at the range and tell myself to "chunk" a ball...and guess what...my weight transfer stops short...chunk.   My back swing is no longer of interest because it really doesn't matter....look at all the crazy pro back swings!   I can take flat or steep back swing and the results are the same because my body has learned to adjust the club in an instant.  I look at distances and say to myself "hit it there", and oddly enough I do without any further thought. 

I'm not making any of this up, and if anyone thinks I am, they simply don't want to explore other options.  Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insanity.  I've been there...done that.  Learning to swing the club intuitively is the only avenue to great golf.

Golf is counter-intuitive which throws everyone, and me, out of whack.  So many folks never improve.  OEM's introduce "more forgiving", "longer hitting" clubs. The golf industry thrives on "bad golf".  Other forums have threads called "Trying to Break 100" that have been up for 8 years....like 845.000 posts.  People are not joining the game or quitting because it's "too hard" which is far from the truth.  If I were teaching golf for a living, I'd be teaching this program because the teaching industry is chalked full of traditional teaching methods.  It's why guys don't bother with lessons, they're going to hear the same thing they saw online, in a magazine, or on Golf Channel.

Honestly, the mere statement of weightlessness  with centripetal force is enough to lose credibility here. FYI, the light grip is traditional methods...

I will try to explain this as well. What you think you are doing, you are not doing. Your grip is tighter than you think. People out there are buying into this flimsy armed swing that is impossible to control. @iacas and @mvmac present topics as a sort of food for thought as well as outlining facts and supporting data. Those who have problems in this area can benefit. Your area of expertise so far is describing your own experience and "lack of swing thoughts" whereas others are very technical. I'm glad what you are doing is working out for you but not everyone learns the same. I like technical information myself and had been previously caught up with the "baby bird" grip but lost all feel of the club. I did figure it out before I read this but the information gives me confidence I am on the right path. Iacas doesn't write "feel" articles and only "argues" with people who dispute factual evidence with unproven statements or opinions. He doesn't want people confused or misled. That last statement is why you feel attacked. Iacas is trying to avoid misinformation here, he is protecting new golfers the best he can. 

[onthehunt526]

44 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

Honestly, the mere statement of weightlessness  with centripetal force is enough to lose credibility here. FYI, the light grip is traditional methods...

I will try to explain this as well. What you think you are doing, you are not doing. Your grip is tighter than you think. People out there are buying into this flimsy armed swing that is impossible to control. @iacas and @mvmac present topics as a sort of food for thought as well as outlining facts and supporting data. Those who have problems in this area can benefit. Your area of expertise so far is describing your own experience and "lack of swing thoughts" whereas others are very technical. I'm glad what you are doing is working out for you but not everyone learns the same. I like technical information myself and had been previously caught up with the "baby bird" grip but lost all feel of the club. I did figure it out before I read this but the information gives me confidence I am on the right path. Iacas doesn't write "feel" articles and only "argues" with people who dispute factual evidence with unproven statements or opinions. He doesn't want people confused or misled. That last statement is why you feel attacked. Iacas is trying to avoid misinformation here, he is protecting new golfers the best he can. 

Now that I have had some time to read some of the information on this. As well as the posts on here. Here's my opinion.

You very well could probably have lighter grip pressure at address. Hell you could probably get away with lighter grip pressure on little chips and such. Where your grip pressure is when you first grip the club is going to probably get firmer as you take the club back especially at the top of the backswing. After reading it a little bit, Erik is right. It doesn't matter one bit if I start by gripping the club like I'm holding Alina's hand lightly, by the time I get to the top of the backswing, I'm going to be holding the club like I'm grabbing both of her hands and swinging her around in circles. Otherwise the club is going to fly out of my hands and probably end up behind me.

 

[iacas]

14 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

OK...enough of the back / forth.

Not one thing in the post you just made addressed the topic of how firmly a player grips the club.

Furthermore, you seem to have glossed over the bits where you accused me of "attacking" you and "doing a disservice to the game" and not having the credentials to discuss this.

The rest is off topic, but I wanted to respond, so…

Spoiler

14 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I follow Ernest Jones and Percy Boomer's methods (both out of the 1930's and 40's) ,"LearnTheRealSwing" videos by a Canadian Pro, Mike Malaska, Erika Larkin videos, Paul Wilson, and Robert Shave video teachings based on Mehlhorn's method. They teach about feeling the club and avoiding mechanics, letting the body swing the club. Sure, there are a few prerequisites like decent grip technique, balanced stance, and body rotation like one is "turning in a barrel" from the waist down. But beyond that It's not that complicated, just subtle "refinements".  I'm a living example.  I suggest folks watch the Canadian Pro's video about people who've never hit a ball.  It's astounding.  I was wary of his approach until it transformed my swing.

Good players don't "turn in a barrel."

I teach "feels" all day. But I understand the mechanics, the physics, and what good players are actually doing.

Tiger, Ben, Jack, and Justin all just busted out of their barrels.

14 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

The path to excellent golf is not accomplished by knowing the swing. If that were the case there would be very few folks shooting over 80.

That's bogus reasoning. Very few people know the golf swing. And… what works for you may not work for someone else.

14 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

The major missing link  is letting the body calibrate to the club's weight.  I can stand at the range and tell myself to "chunk" a ball...and guess what...my weight transfer stops short...chunk.

Then why don't you just tell yourself to hit it flush every time? Why are you still a 7.3 index?

14 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

My back swing is no longer of interest because it really doesn't matter....look at all the crazy pro back swings!

It matters. The backswing is responsible for getting the club into A position from which you can deliver the club to hit the ball effectively.

I said "a" position and not "the" position because there are a lot of ways to swing the club… but a player who is really laid off and rolls the club well across the line at the top is going to have a harder time doing something with his downswing than a player who finds "a" better position at the top.

Ditto with what a player does with his body during the backswing. Taught a kid today whose torso leaned 20° toward the target at the top of the backswing. He's kinda screwed from there. We worked on his backswing.

The backswing matters.

14 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Learning to swing the club intuitively is the only avenue to great golf.

No, it's not.

14 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Golf is counter-intuitive which throws everyone, and me, out of whack.

Some parts are. Other parts are not. I'm not really a big fan of blanket statements like this. Undoubtedly I could find parts of your own swing that you do intuitively, and parts that you need to do counter-intuitively.

14 hours ago, Golflivesmatter said:

If I were teaching golf for a living, I'd be teaching this program because the teaching industry is chalked full of traditional teaching methods.  It's why guys don't bother with lessons, they're going to hear the same thing they saw online, in a magazine, or on Golf Channel.

Another blanket statement.

Now, to be clear, this is all off topic, and further discussion of this is not really allowed. This topic is about how firm you grip the club. It's NOT about whatever the above is about. As the owner, I get the perk of being the last to respond. Sorry, it's my site. 😄 We do try to keep things on topic here, though:

Welcome to TST. Stick around, open your mind, and discuss things with respect for others. Try to read the OP so you know what you're discussing, too.

And please… no more of the "weightless" stuff. That was just really, really bad.

[Golflivesmatter]

9 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Now that I have had some time to read some of the information on this. As well as the posts on here. Here's my opinion.

You very well could probably have lighter grip pressure at address. Hell you could probably get away with lighter grip pressure on little chips and such. Where your grip pressure is when you first grip the club is going to probably get firmer as you take the club back especially at the top of the backswing. After reading it a little bit, Erik is right. It doesn't matter one bit if I start by gripping the club like I'm holding Alina's hand lightly, by the time I get to the top of the backswing, I'm going to be holding the club like I'm grabbing both of her hands and swinging her around in circles. Otherwise the club is going to fly out of my hands and probably end up behind me.

 

Why are folks telling me what my grip pressure "must be"?   I don't think of grip pressure at any point in my swing. I let my hands decide what's needed.  This is the feel side of golf that can't be taught.  It's done through experimentation, and lots of it.  It's also the "uncomfortable side" of golf, the idea of "letting go", trusting that your body and subconscious will figure out what's required to hit the ball. 

Believe me, I was a master of running through all kinds of swing thoughts before every shot.  It didn't help...Overload.  And so many thoughts I'd barely take a back swing for fear of losing "control" of the shot.  And with all those thoughts, I had little time to actually focus on the shot at hand.  Those days are over.  It doesn't work.  I think what I found is the decades spent studying the swing were ALL in my head...tons of documentation....but for some stupid reason I refused to relinquish control to myself to carry out the tasks. Like tossing car keys to someone.

I could reply to you that  "you don't really grab the club at the top because that would apply needless leverage and throw your club off it's natural arc, you just think you do".  But I will never know what you feel, so making any comment would only be based on what I think / feel.    

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Why are folks telling me what my grip pressure "must be"?

Where did @onthehunt526 do that? The word "must" does not even appear in the post you quoted.

8 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I don't think of grip pressure at any point in my swing.

Great. The topic isn't one that you need to worry about, then.

Some number of golfers, however, in gripping the club lightly and then - out of necessity - changing the grip pressure throughout the swing, end up causing problems for themselves. This topic is oriented at them - at letting them know that they can grip the club firmly, despite what many people say, and play good golf.

That's it.

This topic was not started to tell you what to do.

It was started to point out that, whether people know it or not, players are not gripping the club "like holding a baby bird" throughout the golf swing.

8 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

This is the feel side of golf that can't be taught.

This topic has certainly taught players that it's okay to grip the club more firmly than they've been told.

8 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

It's also the "uncomfortable side" of golf, the idea of "letting go", trusting that your body and subconscious will figure out what's required to hit the ball.

And what is one to do when their "body and subconscious" don't just magically figure out what's required?

8 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

Believe me, I was a master of running through all kinds of swing thoughts before every shot. It didn't help...Overload.

That has nothing to do with this.

8 minutes ago, Golflivesmatter said:

I could reply to you that  "you don't really grab the club at the top because that would apply needless leverage and throw your club off it's natural arc, you just think you do".  But I will never know what you feel, so making any comment would only be based on what I think / feel.    

And yet… you almost certainly grip the club more firmly in transition:

Those graphs come from Sasho Mackenzie. They show:

• That the golfers in those studies gripped the club much more firmly at the top and during parts of the downswing than they did at setup.
• That the golfers in those studies would have crushed the heck out of a baby bird, had they been holding one instead of a golf grip.

[iacas]

I'll add this, which is something I thought about this morning: I don't remember the last time I ever talked about someone's grip pressure in a golf lesson.

The entire point of this topic is essentially to help those who think that they have to hold the club like a baby bird. That's it.

[Vinsk]

Damn! Now that’s some serious data along with intelligent explanations to your point. I’ve always thought differently but I’m really glad to have leaned this new information! I hope I can digest this and maybe it will shed some light on some misconceptions I’ve had for quite some time. Thanks @iacas...thanks for putting in the time to post this...all for ....oh..well...your love for the game and dedication to helping others. 

 

If only.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Vinsk

[Nail]

Old topic I know but how would one know if they grip it too light or too tight. I fear I may be in the minority that grip too tight but I’m reluctant to loosen my grip for fear of losing control. 

I know it is statistically unlikely that I grip it too tight but I think I might be an outlier. 

How would I know?