World Handicap System Now Out (2020)

[phillyk]

10 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Misspoke, net double of course.

It’ll never work.  No one....and I mean NO ONE, will ever check the database on the off chance that the scorecard is somehow different...  

My association sent out an email to all professionals or whomever is in charge of the course, to send the most recent scorecard with updated pars/allocations so that the database and scorecards are the same.

We are not required to change anything, they just recommend certain things. For eg we have a short looking par 5 on scorecard but it goes wayyy uphill. Instead of 450ish, it plays like 500 or more.

I’m guessing this first year will be a little hectic.

[Double Mocha Man]

6 minutes ago, phillyk said:

My association sent out an email to all professionals or whomever is in charge of the course, to send the most recent scorecard with updated pars/allocations so that the database and scorecards are the same.

We are not required to change anything, they just recommend certain things. For eg we have a short looking par 5 on scorecard but it goes wayyy uphill. Instead of 450ish, it plays like 500 or more.

I’m guessing this first year will be a little hectic.

No. 9.  It plays even longer if you hit that tree in the middle of the fairway. ☺️

[dennyjones]

39 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Misspoke, net double of course.

It’ll never work.  No one....and I mean NO ONE, will ever check the database on the off chance that the scorecard is somehow different...  

I'm not sure what you're referencing here?  The USGA National Course Rating Database?  I check it every season for every course I play.  

[David in FL]

8 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

I'm not sure what you're referencing here?  The USGA National Course Rating Database?  I check it every season for every course I play.  

And do you compare the par on every hole to what’s on the scorecard, or just check CR and slope?  If you do, you’re the only one! 

Everyone else in the real world just looks at the score card.  Hell,  99% of the golfers out there don’t even know there is such a thing as a national course rating database!

Edited December 8, 2019 by David in FL

[dennyjones]

1 minute ago, David in FL said:

And do you compare the par on every hole to what’s on the scorecard, or just check CR and slope?  If you do, you’re the only one! 

Everyone else in the real world just looks at the score card.  Hell,  99% of the golfers out there don’t even know there is such a thing as a national course rating database!

I don't compare the par on every hole, I didn't realize that was an option.   I just check CR and slope.    Is there a database that shows each course's scorecard by hole?  

[iacas]

If you enter hole by hole scores David it won’t matter.

[David in FL]

3 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

I don't compare the par on every hole, I didn't realize that was an option.   I just check CR and slope.    Is there a database that shows each course's scorecard by hole?  

Not that I know of. And that’s exactly the point. If it’s on the scorecard as a par-5, people are going to score it as a par5...

1 minute ago, iacas said:

If you enter hole by hole scores David it won’t matter.

True, but almost nobody does that either.   I don’t know a single person who does.

Hell, in most groups, at least those I play in, one cart keeps everybody’s score because they’re the one keeping track of the game.  At the end of the day Joe says to David “what did I shoot?”...

 

[RemyM]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Yes.

 And it’s net double.

If the course rating determines its a par four, they can put whatever they want on the card but it’s a four for the net double stuff (the new ESC).

Par will not differ on a hole by gender based on the difference in tee length.  If most of the tees rated for men are a par 5 then all will be played as a par five even if one forward tee is only par 4 length. See page 101.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, RemyM said:

Par will not differ on a hole by gender based on the difference in tee length.  If most of the tees rated for men are a par 5 then all will be played as a par five even if one forward tee is only par 4 length. See page 101.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

No.

Again, what’s on the card is irrelevant and courses are free to put on the what they want.

Especially across genders.

[reidsou]

7 hours ago, RemyM said:

Par will not differ on a hole by gender based on the difference in tee length.  If most of the tees rated for men are a par 5 then all will be played as a par five even if one forward tee is only par 4 length. See page 101.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

Thanks for clarifying. Totally agree.

It's confusing though. I read through "Appendix F: Establishing Par", that you cited. It lists the par yardages as "recommended guidelines". Also rule 4.1a states that par and stroke index are found on the scorecard and mentions responsibility for "adjudicating par" in the interpretation. See pages 42 & 43. 

Both rule 4.1a and Appendix F reference the scorecard. Including, "an accurate par... should be printed on the scorecard." (Here "should" is stronger than "recommended guideline".)

Therefore, in my opinion, the player is responsible for using par as shown on the scorecard. Players should not override the scorecard with yardage guidelines. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, reidsou said:

Therefore, in my opinion, the player is responsible for using par as shown on the scorecard. Players should not override the scorecard with yardage guidelines. 

He didn’t clarify anything because that page says nothing about gender and contains only recommendations.

 The whole point is that people can put whatever they want on the scorecard… but there’s a “par for handicap” that actually counts.

[RemyM]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

No.

Again, what’s on the card is irrelevant and courses are free to put on the what they want.

Especially across genders.

Same gender, not across.

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 The whole point is that people can put whatever they want on the scorecard… but there’s a “par for handicap” that actually counts.

I still don’t understand that.  Where does one find the reference for “par for handicap”?   

Edited December 8, 2019 by David in FL

[iacas]

2 hours ago, RemyM said:

Same gender, not across.

It doesn’t matter. Scorecards can say whatever they want.

[RemyM]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

It doesn’t matter. Scorecards can say whatever they want.

By why would they?  You need an accurate par to calculate your "playing handicap", to determine what net double bogey is and to score in forms of play such as Stableford.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, RemyM said:

By why would they?

Because they can. Because the old guys at The Golf Club of Somewhere have always played the fifth hole as a par five, so gosh darnit, it's gonna say "5" on the scorecard.

The WHS says that even if people use the scorecard par instead of the true par (whatever you want to call it) for their net double max thing, the effects on the handicap system will be negligible.

[reidsou]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

It doesn’t matter. Scorecards can say whatever they want.

I believe this statement is incorrect (see Appendix F quote below).

It also seems to imply that it is the player’s responsibility to determine the par of each hole for purposes of handicap posting. If so, this is contradicted several places in the 2020 Rules of Handicapping. 

Definition of par: “The score that a scratch player would generally be expected to achieve on a hole under normal course and weather conditions, allowing for two strokes on the putting green (see Appendix F). The Authorized Association or, at the discretion of the National Association, the golf club is responsible for adjudicating par (see Appendix A).” [emphasis added]

From Appendix A: "Apply and/or communicate the stipulated procedures for establishing par...” is a listed responsibility for everyone except the player.  

Also from Appendix A, the Golf Club/Handicap committee is responsible for “Display a Course Handicap and Playing Handicap adjustment table for each set of tees, for players’ reference.” Par is part of the calculations of Course Handicap and Playing Handicap.

From Appendix E: “The Rules of Golf state: “The Committee is responsible for publishing on the scorecard or somewhere else that is visible (for example, near the first tee) the order of holes at which handicap strokes are to be given or received. (See Rules of Golf, Committee Procedures, Rule 5I (4)). It is recommended that a stroke index allocation be applied over 18-holes, split into six triads with each hole ranked on its playing difficulty relative to par.” So assignment of par is implied here also.

From Appendix F: “It is important that an accurate par be established for each hole on a golf course for both men and women, and these values should be printed alongside each hole on the scorecard.” (Explicitly states that the scorecards cannot “say whatever they want.”)

 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, reidsou said:

I believe this statement is incorrect (see Appendix F quote below).

It is not.

Jeez.

A golf course can put whatever par they want down for a hole. They can make one set of tees a par five and another set of tees a par four for the same gender if they want. They can pretty much do whatever.

And it happens, in the wild. We've all seen relatively flat 410-yard par fives. When I play the white tees at some courses, there are "par fives" that I can hit PW into. At some other courses, they'll split the par on the scorecard and call that a par four.

I understand what you both are saying about the official guidelines, but they're just that: guidelines. They're not regulations, and what could anyone do if there's a card with a hole listed as "Par 5/4"? Remove them from the course rating database? Not gonna happen.

6 minutes ago, reidsou said:

It also seems to imply that it is the player’s responsibility to determine the par of each hole for purposes of handicap posting. If so, this is contradicted several places in the 2020 Rules of Handicapping. 

It doesn't imply that, no.

There are holes where the course will list something as a par five that is played as a par four, and if they enter hole-by-hole scores it'll correctly apply net double max.

8 minutes ago, reidsou said:

From Appendix F: “It is important that an accurate par be established for each hole on a golf course for both men and women, and these values should be printed alongside each hole on the scorecard.” (Explicitly states that the scorecards cannot “say whatever they want.”)

It says "should." It doesn't say "shall" or "must."