Technically Speaking... fade/slice & draw/hook

[Dave325]

I am trying to understand the mechanics of the various ball shapings (or mis-shaping).So, technically speaking...  Isn't the fade a gentler version of a slice?  And, isn't the draw a slightly gentler version of the hook?  I am just a bit confused on the ball/spin mechanics here. Is it important to know these mechanics to get the ball to do what you want it to, and be able to shape each shot? I'm not sure, but eager to learn if anyone has any insights on this subject.

[kpaulhus]

Simply put, yes.

A slice starts way left of the target line and finishes way right. A fade starts slightly left of target and ends on target. Vice Versa for the draw/hook. I know there is a thread about ball flight mechanics here somewhere. Ball Flight Laws

[saevel25]

7 minutes ago, Dave325 said:

I am trying to understand the mechanics of the various ball shapings (or mis-shaping).So, technically speaking...  Isn't the fade a gentler version of a slice?  And, isn't the draw a slightly gentler version of the hook?  I am just a bit confused on the ball/spin mechanics here. Is it important to know these mechanics to get the ball to do what you want it to, and be able to shape each shot? I'm not sure, but eager to learn if anyone has any insights on this subject.

I would classify a fade as a ball that starts left and then finishes between or on the target line and angle the ball started on. Imagine a cone, one line is the target line, the other is the start line of the ball. The ball ends up inside the two lines, with left to right curve (for right handed golfer). 

To me a slice is when the ball cross over and ends up right of the target line. 

I wouldn't worry about shaping shots. Just find a consistent ball flight. It's rare you ever need to shape the ball, except for maybe a driver on a dogleg or something. As long as you know your shot zone for your stock shot you can aim to take hazards out of play. 

[collapse]

Try not to use them all in one round.

[mvmac]

6 hours ago, Dave325 said:

I am trying to understand the mechanics of the various ball shapings (or mis-shaping).So, technically speaking...  Isn't the fade a gentler version of a slice?  And, isn't the draw a slightly gentler version of the hook?  I am just a bit confused on the ball/spin mechanics here. Is it important to know these mechanics to get the ball to do what you want it to, and be able to shape each shot? I'm not sure, but eager to learn if anyone has any insights on this subject.

Check this out.

 

[Dave325]

8 hours ago, mvmac said:

Check this out.

 

Thanks for sharing this, Mike. A super fantastic post that I bookmarked to re-read a few times. Thank you, Erik, for taking the time to write it up. Its perfect! 

[Pretzel]

To me, and I imagine to many others, the difference between a fade/draw and a slice/hook is a matter of control. I consider something to be a slice when it fades more than I intended it to, and for something to be a hook if it draws more than intended. This fits with the definition of Savael25, in slightly less technical terms.

 

[saevel25]

Here's a good one from 2010

[collapse]

This might be worth trying.

http://golf-info-guide.com/golf-tips/pro-signature-shot/jack-nicklaus-power-fade/

[vangator]

On ‎12‎/‎4‎/‎2015 at 8:57 AM, Pretzel said:

To me, and I imagine to many others, the difference between a fade/draw and a slice/hook is a matter of control. I consider something to be a slice when it fades more than I intended it to, and for something to be a hook if it draws more than intended. This fits with the definition of Savael25, in slightly less technical terms.

 

I wouldn't say that exactly.  I have hit hooks and slices that didn't move as much as I wanted.

Simply, a hook / slice moves more laterally than a draw / fade.  I think that's all you can say.  At what point does a fade become a slice or a draw become a hook?  There's definitely a gray zone. 

What causes a ball to hook versus a draw?  The amount of spin, the axis of the spin, both, neither?  I would guess a little of both in varying combinations.  Same for slice / fade.

[Pretzel]

1 hour ago, vangator said:

Simply, a hook / slice moves more laterally than a draw / fade.  I think that's all you can say.  At what point does a fade become a slice or a draw become a hook?  There's definitely a gray zone. 

That's why I define it based on what I want the ball to do, rather than a specific amount of curve.

[14ledo81]

6 hours ago, Pretzel said:

That's why I define it based on what I want the ball to do, rather than a specific amount of curve.

 

What if you hit a massive hook, but it still did not hook enough?  If you were trying to hook it around a tree for instance.

[vangator]

6 hours ago, Pretzel said:

That's why I define it based on what I want the ball to do, rather than a specific amount of curve.

I think for most golfers, a slice or hook is something they don't want to do.  For only exceptional circumstances, like a tree in the way, I do want to move the ball more than a slight draw or fade.  So, if I want to hook a ball around a tree, I may hook it but maybe not enough or maybe too much, but it's still a hook. 

I think a draw / fade is a much more subtle move and generally a desirable thing (if it moves like you were intending).   Generally a hook or slice is something that is not wanted except for exceptional circumstances.

Is a draw up to 1/4 of the fairway?  For me that's about the limit I want.  If my ball move more than half a fairway, I call that a hook.  As long as it's in the fairway, I call it a good shot too.

[Pretzel]

5 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

What if you hit a massive hook, but it still did not hook enough?  If you were trying to hook it around a tree for instance.

In exceptional circumstances like that I would still call it a hook, but I was referring to normal circumstances. I used to play about a 20-30 yard draw on my tee shots (the high school golf season started before I could fix it and I was playing decently, so I just rolled with it until after the state tournament) that most people would refer to as a hook. Since it was what I was intending to do I would call it a draw.

5 hours ago, vangator said:

I think a draw / fade is a much more subtle move and generally a desirable thing (if it moves like you were intending).   Generally a hook or slice is something that is not wanted except for exceptional circumstances.

You and I think alike in this regard, we just define when it becomes a hook versus a draw, or a slice versus a fade, differently. You define it based on the distance it curves, I define it based on what I want the ball to do. Like I said, if I want it to move a lot (to get around a tree or obstacle) I will still call it a hook or a slice, but on an ordinary shot it's just a draw or fade to me, regardless of the actually distance of the curve, provided that it is controlled and curving the amount that I want it to curve. If it curves too much it becomes a slice/hook, if it doesn't curve enough it just didn't draw/fade enough.

[vangator]

Sounds like we are on the same page though.

This just reminded me of a round years ago when a guy said he played a draw off the tee.  When he's hit his shot, he would start it out over the right rough and it would curve back to the left rough.  I said, "That's not a draw, that's a hook!".   He'd play it every hole though pretty well.

Only person I can remember that would hook his sand wedges.  Not draw, but hook.

Edited December 17, 2015 by vangator

[collapse]

Bruce Lietzke played a big fade which Johnny Miller disparagingly called a slice.

[TN94z]

On 12/3/2015 at 4:00 PM, saevel25 said:

I wouldn't worry about shaping shots. Just find a consistent ball flight. It's rare you ever need to shape the ball, except for maybe a driver on a dogleg or something. As long as you know your shot zone for your stock shot you can aim to take hazards out of play. 

I agree. I had always hit a slight fade back when I was playing a lot. I have worked on my swing quite a bit since then to start hitting more of a draw. Sometimes I wonder if it was worth all of the effort...haha!  A slight fade is a nice shot in my opinion. Knowing your shot zone is key! Good point

[iacas]

2 hours ago, collapse said:

Bruce Lietzke played a big fade which Johnny Miller disparagingly called a slice.

It was a slice. Paul Goydos agrees, and said something like "I know we're supposed to call it a fade since we're professionals, but when your 7-iron curves 30 yards, it's a slice."

I believe that quote was at Pebble Beach.