• Announcements

    • iacas

      Introducing TST "Clubs!"   08/28/2017

      No, we're not getting into the equipment business, but we do have "clubs" here on TST now. Groups. Check them out here:
MiniBlueDragon

Ball flight laws and misinformation

Recommended Posts

The majority of people on TST know, understand and believe the 'new' (read: correct) ball flight laws where the club face is responsible for ~85% of the starting line of the flight, however there are many people who have played for years with the 'old' ball flight laws and continue to do so because to them the old way is correct.

OLD = Initial direction of the ball is dictated by the club head path . The curvature of the ball is dictated by the club face angle.

NEW = Initial direction of the ball is 85% dictated by the club face angle . The curvature is dictated by the club head path.

Today I watched another Masterclass video with Mizuno and Luke Donald (number 1 again. Go Llluuuuukkkkeeeee!) which was filled with misinformation:



Luke says in the video, "Get that ball position a little bit more forward for a cut. Aim my club face at the pin. Aim my body a little bit left. And then swing across that line."

If you look at the video however that's not the case:

Adobe Flash Player_2012-03-19_11-20-11.png

Luke's body and club head path is aimed way left toward the far left of the green and the ball starts out just left of the pin, curving back toward it.

Just another example of feel not being real in my opinion.

NOTE: I'm a big Luke fan and I love seeing ALL types of golfer play. The above is solely an opinion I'm sharing because I hate us amateurs being fed misinformation. If the old laws work for Luke that's great. If they work for you that's great. I just feel that incorrect information should not be taught to people as being the truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sign up (or log in) today! It's free (and you won't see this ad anymore)!

Sign up (or log in) today! It's free (and you won't see this ad anymore)!

The_Pharaoh    49

He also contradicts himself. Before he takes the shot he says aim the clubface left of the pin and then over the ball says aim it at the pin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

iacas    4,182

Luke has a Trackman, has worked extensively with it, etc. It just goes to show that even if you know the right information, applying it to your mental circuitry is difficult. Clearly his muscular circuitry has had the "right information" for a long, long time.

At the end of the day you don't need to know the right information here to play some incredible golf. But it helps, and since it only takes a few minutes to understand, I don't see the point in bumbling along with the wrong information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

The_Pharaoh    49

I'm also surprised someone at Mizuno didn't know better. Unfortunately, I think they were more concerned with having their brand associated with Luke than giving out the right information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

poser    38

Thats the way I hit a fade and its the only way I can.  I"ve never been able to start the ball left of my stance line and fade it back.  I open way up in my stance play the ball far foward and open the face towards the target and hit a push fade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Pro golfers try to instantly forget bad strokes/holes/courses and only remember their very best shots/holes etc because positive mental attitude is incredibly important to success. If I was World #1 and I believed that the Golf Fairy carried the ball to the hole whenever I said "Fluffy Slippers" in my mind at address it's a thought that I would cling onto for dear life as clearly it works for me, else I wouldn't be World #1.

I sincerely think it's fine for any golfer to believe whatever they want in their game; more power to them. Where I draw the line is when they then start perpetuating misinformation to people who know no better, effectively holding them back from their best potential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

iacas    4,182

Originally Posted by poser

Thats the way I hit a fade and its the only way I can.  I"ve never been able to start the ball left of my stance line and fade it back.  I open way up in my stance play the ball far foward and open the face towards the target and hit a push fade.


A push fade is a perfectly fine shot to play. I use that myself. However, as you know, your clubface is not pointed at the target at impact.

For the numbers below, the target is at 0 degrees and negative numbers are left of the target.

Pull-fade: Stance 0°, Path -4°, Clubface -2°.   (Clubface is 2° closed relative to stance, hence, pull-fade).

Push-fade: Stance -6°, Path -4°, Clubface -2°. (Clubface is 4° open relative to stance, hence, push-fade).

Push-fade: Stance -4°, Path -4°, Clubface -2°. (Same as one above with smaller difference in stance/path).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

TourSpoon    180

I played with a pro Saturday who played the push fade. He hit some incredible golf shots. He aimed his body open about 15 degrees and it looked like his face was aimed at the pin. I know that is how he set-up to hit the shot, but that is not what happened at impact as the club face had to be closed as as compared to the initial address position but open to the path. It was not by much because it was more of a baby fade with so much control. I don't know if he knows the ball flight laws, but he knows how to play competitive golf on the local tournament level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Golfingdad    1,850


Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I sincerely think it's fine for any golfer to believe whatever they want in their game; more power to them. Where I draw the line is when they then start perpetuating misinformation to people who know no better, effectively holding them back from their best potential.



I completely agree that it is misinformation because the "new" laws are, no doubt, correct.  However, I think we might be putting too much stock in them, and I don't necessarily agree that it is holding people back.  There were good and bad golfers prior to the "new" laws and there are good and bad golfers now.  And I am sure many of the bad golfers now know the new laws.  To me, the part of the ball flight laws that really matter haven't changed; club face closed relative to path, ball curves left, and club face open relative to path, ball curves right.  That is what I would take away from the video.  I've seen other videos posted here (and there are probably hundreds of them out there) like this one, or the Brandel Chamblee/Aaron Rodgers video, or the Nick Faldo/Sony Open video that all say the same thing.  And they are all wrong in the exact literal sense, i.e. in the case of the Nick Faldo video (how to curve one around a tree) if you followed his directions to the letter, you would, in fact, hit the tree every time.  But you would see that the first time you practiced it, and you would keep tinkering until you figured out how to hit the target.

Anyways, that is my two cents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

mvmac    1,761

I'm also surprised someone at Mizuno didn't know better. Unfortunately, I think they were more concerned with having their brand associated with Luke than giving out the right information.

The equipment companies do know but are in a tough spot. They're interested in selling clubs, not informing the masses and don't want to be the ones to deal with the backlash of telling golfers they have been taught the wrong info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon View Post

I sincerely think it's fine for any golfer to believe whatever they want in their game; more power to them. Where I draw the line is when they then start perpetuating misinformation to people who know no better, effectively holding them back from their best potential.



Well said

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Harmonious    169


Originally Posted by mvmac

The equipment companies do know but are in a tough spot. They're interested in selling clubs, not informing the masses and don't want to be the ones to deal with the backlash of telling golfers they have been taught the wrong info.

You think that Mizuno is worried that golfers will not buy their clubs because a short Luke Donald video may differ from their ball flight philosophy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sean_miller    371

Sorry I didn't watch the video, but and maybe I've missed something in the video summary, but does Luke actually refer to ball flight laws or is he simply desribing how he sets up to hit a shot? To hit a draw, I align my feet and club face to the target, then shift slightly to the right, which naturally shifts the face to right of the target as well. Then I either close the clubface a little or swing out to the right depending on the day. At impact the club face is right of the final target in order to have the ball draw back to it, but it was aimed squarely at the target when I started the process.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

The equipment companies do know but are in a tough spot. They're interested in selling clubs, not informing the masses and don't want to be the ones to deal with the backlash of telling golfers they have been taught the wrong info.

You think that Mizuno is worried that golfers will not buy their clubs because a short Luke Donald video may differ from their ball flight philosophy?



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As others have stated and many pro golfers have proved knowledge of the ball flight laws is by no means a necessity in playing amazing golf.  For the majority of the gifted golfers out there their body just figures it out even if their brain can't.  I really think that where knowledge of the ball flight laws really matters is for golfers like me who don't really have that natural ability and need to understand what is actually happening so we can attempt to make the correct fix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Jwat381    2

I guess I fall in the minority, what are the new ball flight laws? I got a handout in my golf class I took thru my school that said the clubface controls spin direction (fade or draw, or in my case, slice or hook) and the path controls starting line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

iacas    4,182

Originally Posted by Harmonious

You think that Mizuno is worried that golfers will not buy their clubs because a short Luke Donald video may differ from their ball flight philosophy?


Typically not a fan of speaking for others, but no, H, that's not what he thinks.

He's simply saying that Mizuno is marketing with these videos, not looking to necessarily put out the absolute 100% perfect information and in doing so contradict what their (only?) star player has to say.

His description is muddy at best, but he definitely says "point the clubface at the target," which is misleading.

And look, we've done our jobs. People know the correct information, and when someone gives bad information, other people here share the links to the correct information. Job done. We don't need to keep bringing this same old topic up, or talking about it. (I've already had conversations about this video on various Facebook groups, for example.)

Case in point:


Originally Posted by Jwat381

I guess I fall in the minority, what are the new ball flight laws? I got a handout in my golf class I took thru my school that said the clubface controls spin direction (fade or draw, or in my case, slice or hook) and the path controls starting line.


Read about them here: Ball Flight Laws .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades



Originally Posted by Jwat381

I guess I fall in the minority, what are the new ball flight laws? I got a handout in my golf class I took thru my school that said the clubface controls spin direction (fade or draw, or in my case, slice or hook) and the path controls starting line.


First post.

Originally Posted by iacas

We don't need to keep bringing this same old topic up, or talking about it.


Yeah sorry about that; I just saw what seemed to be a nice clear example of feel versus real regarding the laws so I shared it and explained why. I know there are other examples out there; I just felt this one was especially useful. Won't happen again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jwat381    2


Thanks, I found that right after I asked the question haha. It gets confusing going back and forth between the old and new, but I think I've got. I  usually hit a straight fade, sometimes a push fade, or more like a push slice, but that's rare anymore. So my clubface is actually getting pretty square or closed, but my biggest problem is too much out to in swing? Good to know, I've been working really hard on that. I'll get the driver out and swing as in to out as I think I can and hit a few duck hooks just to get the feel. When I amp up the swing speed I still get a tiny bit of fade still. This is good to know tho.



Read about them here: Ball Flight Laws .



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

mvmac    1,761


Originally Posted by iacas

Typically not a fan of speaking for others, but no, H, that's not what he thinks.

He's simply saying that Mizuno is marketing with these videos, not looking to necessarily put out the absolute 100% perfect information and in doing so contradict what their (only?) star player has to say.



Correct, thanks Erik.

Originally Posted by Jwat381

Thanks, I found that right after I asked the question haha. It gets confusing going back and forth between the old and new, but I think I've got. I  usually hit a straight fade, sometimes a push fade, or more like a push slice, but that's rare anymore. So my clubface is actually getting pretty square or closed, but my biggest problem is too much out to in swing? Good to know, I've been working really hard on that. I'll get the driver out and swing as in to out as I think I can and hit a few duck hooks just to get the feel. When I amp up the swing speed I still get a tiny bit of fade still. This is good to know tho.


Yes the straight fade would be club face aimed at the target, path was left so the ball curved to the right.  To hit a draw with the driver, start off by aiming the face a little right of target, let's say right center of the fairway and aiming the body further right.  There are also swing faults that can lead to the path not being far enough right but it's easier to start with the set-up alignments

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now




  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2017 TST Partners

    Talamore Golf Resort
    PING Golf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Mission Belt
    Snell Golf
    Frogger Golf
    PitchFix USA
  • Posts

    • Good to have golfers from all over the planet here. See you around! Under the "How To..." drop down menu above, there are all kinds of things there you might want to scan through. How to create an "avatar" How to get "Achievements" (those little icons that show up at the bottom of your posts) How to quote people or other sources How to embed video. Just lots of the details about how things get done here. Since you're interested in instruction, don't miss the "Info...Instructional Content" link in the menu above. Also linked here below. That'll give you a sense of some of the top instruction threads that have been created here in the past. Lastly, you mentioned that there are lots of "tips" here- and you'll quickly find that this site does not promote the idea of hunting the internet for "tips." This site is all about finding the correct priority for fixing a swing (not always easy for us golfers to know) and then applying practice techniques to address that one thing. Then move on to the next priority. I'm not saying that I think you are one of these "tip-hunters", but since you mentioned the word, I just wanted to put it out there that there are lots of testimonies here about the futile search for "tips" on the internet and not improving much as a result of going from one tip to another.  Anyway, welcome! Here's the thread I mentioned above.  
    • Winston Salem only carries balls. The other stores are at least 1.5 hours away.
    • I agree.... my mechanics are to blame much more than my composure, as is the case with the majority of us.  If you read my comment in context of the previous comments, you'll see I wasn't claiming composure>physical at all. 
    • Revealing thread, there are varying "definitions" of what's mental and what's physical. I would have called game planning, green reading and just practicing effectively mental, along with just maintaining composure/managing pressure/stress. What's the essential difference between someone who just mindlessly bashes ball after ball at the range vs someone who practices with purpose? "The way I look at it in golf is that the mental game is a mechanism for fulfilling physical potential. Physical potential being a function of natural ability and effort put in through practice, instruction, conditioning, etc. Physical potential won’t automatically be transferred to the golf course in the form of performance. That is where a strong mental game steps in and allows the body to perform the tasks it has already been trained to do. In other words, the mental game bridges physical potential and physical performance. When faced with consequence on the golf course, the physical motion the body already knows how to perform can be hindered by doubt, fear, and anxiety. Our mind and body know how to physically execute the shot, and the mental game is required to protect that ability by warding off the potential doubt, fear or anxiety."
    • Today I came across to this video and just wanted to share it with you guys Her swing looks great! 
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Blog Entries

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. CoachB25
      CoachB25
      (60 years old)
    2. Fsgolfer
      Fsgolfer
      (61 years old)
    3. Zach
      Zach
      (27 years old)
  • Get Great Gear with Amazon