Bunker penalty stroke?

[Dave325]

I heard about this penalty, but didn't think it was true... There is a wrap-around bunker that starts on the right side of the green and continues around the back of the green to the left. Let's say the players ball is on the right side of the green and hits a shot that inadvertently goes over the green and into to th e left side (remember, this is the same bunker). The player hits the sand with his club after the shot and walks to left side of the green to take his next shot. I heard that the golfer is charged a penalty stroke for grounding the club in the sand, since the ball is in the SAME bunker. Is this true?

[Fourputt]

Yes.  2 stroke penalty for touching the surface of the bunker with your club.  You could have raked out your foot prints with no penalty, but you are not allowed to touch the surface with your club if the ball lies in the bunker.

 

By the way, it's not really "grounding" the club.  Grounding only occurs when you address the ball.  You can touch the ground without grounding the club.

[Golfingdad]

36 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Yes.  2 stroke penalty for touching the surface of the bunker with your club.  You could have raked out your foot prints with no penalty, but you are not allowed to touch the surface with your club if the ball lies in the bunker.

 

By the way, it's not really "grounding" the club.  Grounding only occurs when you address the ball.  You can touch the ground without grounding the club.

Is the fact that it's the same bunker mean anything?  Or simply that the ball is in A bunker?

[Rulesman]

It's because he hit the bunker that the ball is now in. The fact it was in there before is irrelevant.

 

There is a decision.

13-4/35  

Hitting Sand in Bunker with Club After Failing to Extricate Ball

Q.A made a stroke in a bunker and failed to get the ball out. He then swung his club into the sand, but his action did not affect his new lie in the bunker. However, since A had to make another stroke in the bunker, was he in breach of Rule 13-4?

A.Yes. None of the Exceptions under Rule 13-4 apply to A's action.

[DrvFrShow]

Now if the player slammed their club into the sand while the ball was in the air before it landed in the bunker on the other side....

You're not allowed to rake the sand while your ball is in the bunker either. i.e. drag the rake on your way to your ball. 

In this same wrap around bunker, this brings up something else.... care for the bunker.... You have one spot that needs to be raked, and now you have another spot that needs to be raked. According to the rules you can't rake the first spot, but must recruit one of your slaves (opponent or competitor) to rake that for you while you hit your shot out of the other spot. Unless you want to hold up play and rake both of them after you hole out.... or leave them unraked for the next poor (sandy beach).

Of course if you're playing by yourself in 2016, you can rake the first one without penalty since it is merely a practice round and doesn't count for handicap purposes. I mean really, you're not learning anything new about the sand.

[Rulesman]

Some misunderstandings there.

Exceptions: 2. At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazard provided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. 

If however the player gets someone else to rake the bunker when he is not permitted, the player gets the penalty and both may be DQd for agreeing to waive a rule of golf.

[Dave325]

5 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Some misunderstandings there.

Exceptions: 2. At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazard provided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. 

If however the player gets someone else to rake the bunker when he is not permitted, the player gets the penalty and both may be DQd for agreeing to waive a rule of golf.

Wow... I had no idea about that one! Not knowing this rule can cause a well-meaning player a serious issue.  I have got to get myself a rule book. However, I am not sure that some of these rules might need to be reviewed by the powers that be.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Dave325

[Dormie1360]

1 hour ago, Dave325 said:

Wow... I had no idea about that one! Not knowing this rule can cause a well-meaning player a serious issue.  I have got to get myself a rule book. However, I am not sure that some of these rules might need to be reviewed by the powers that be.

 

If the player who played the stroke were able to rake his footprints under the rules (the ball could still be in the bunker), his fellow competitor could rake the footprints for him.  If the player who made the stroke could not rake his footprints without breaching R13-2, he can't avoid a penalty by letting his fellow competitor rake them instead.  It would make sense that you couldn't let another player improve your lie if you couldn't.

 

7 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

Now if the player slammed their club into the sand while the ball was in the air before it landed in the bunker on the other side....

You're not allowed to rake the sand while your ball is in the bunker either. i.e. drag the rake on your way to your ball. 

In this same wrap around bunker, this brings up something else.... care for the bunker.... You have one spot that needs to be raked, and now you have another spot that needs to be raked. According to the rules you can't rake the first spot, but must recruit one of your slaves (opponent or competitor) to rake that for you while you hit your shot out of the other spot. Unless you want to hold up play and rake both of them after you hole out.... or leave them unraked for the next poor (sandy beach).

Of course if you're playing by yourself in 2016, you can rake the first one without penalty since it is merely a practice round and doesn't count for handicap purposes. I mean really, you're not learning anything new about the sand.

If I play a stroke in a bunker and my ball lands somewhere else in the same bunker,  I could in fact drag a rake behind my feet while walking to my next stroke, no penalty.  I could rake all the damage created by my first stroke, before playing my next stroke in the bunker.  As long as it's done in caring for the course, and nothing I rake will improve my line of play, stance, or swing for my next stroke in the bunker, there is no penalty.

If, on the other hand, I were to play a stroke from a bunker and the ball lands out of bounds.  I could rake my footprints, splash mark, etc., before dropping a ball under R27.  This is because, once the ball is no longer in the bunker after my stroke, I can rake away without penalty.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Dormie1360

[Fourputt]

1 hour ago, Dave325 said:

Wow... I had no idea about that one! Not knowing this rule can cause a well-meaning player a serious issue.  I have got to get myself a rule book. However, I am not sure that some of these rules might need to be reviewed by the powers that be.

 

7 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Some misunderstandings there.

Exceptions: 2. At any time, the player may smooth sand or soil in a hazard provided this is for the sole purpose of caring for the course and nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. 

If however the player gets someone else to rake the bunker when he is not permitted, the player gets the penalty and both may be DQd for agreeing to waive a rule of golf.

 

A player may rake out his footprints or other disturbed sand as long as it is for the care of the course, even when his ball lies in the same bunker.  The exception is that he cannot do anything that might improve his line of play for his next stroke.  In the OP's case, raking out the damage from the previous shot would be allowed.  

If his shot had hit the lip of the bunker and popped up over his head and straight behind the spot from which the shot was made so that his divot and footprints were on the new line of play, then he would not be allowed to rake until after his next shot, assuming that he was more successful the next time.

[Rulesman]

2 hours ago, Dave325 said:

However, I am not sure that some of these rules might need to be reviewed by the powers that be.

They are unlikely to change this one as was only introduced a few years ago.

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, Dave325 said:

Wow... I had no idea about that one! Not knowing this rule can cause a well-meaning player a serious issue.  I have got to get myself a rule book. However, I am not sure that some of these rules might need to be reviewed by the powers that be.

It's the same as if you missed the first shot. It's just more work to clean up the bunker after you successfully hit ball out.

One time, I hit an overhanging branch and the ball hit the green and rolled back into the bunker. After the shot, I grounded the club thinking that it was going to make it out, and was told that I incurred the penalties as the ball rolled back in.

[Golfingdad]

Just to clear ... is this to say that it WOULD NOT be a penalty if the wall was in a different bunker?

---

Also, a separate question that is a slight hijack of the thread:  Can you receive a penalty for touching the sand in a bunker with your club when you are not holding it?  A watched a guy the other day playing from an awkward lie ABOVE a bunker chunk his shot really bad such that it just dropped into that bunker and then he immediately just kinda flung his club in the air in disgust back over his head and it landed in the same bunker.

[Lihu]

33 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

---

Also, a separate question that is a slight hijack of the thread:  Can you receive a penalty for touching the sand in a bunker with your club when you are not holding it?  A watched a guy the other day playing from an awkward lie ABOVE a bunker chunk his shot really bad such that it just dropped into that bunker and then he immediately just kinda flung his club in the air in disgust back over his head and it landed in the same bunker.

Yes, he gets the penalty, because the club hit the sand with the ball in the same bunker as a result of a swing (flunging it?!?). It would be less penal to count it as a shot, as opposed to grounding the club. Personally, I wouldn't let him know until after quite a few beers. . .

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

It's the same as if you missed the first shot. It's just more work to clean up the bunker after you successfully hit ball out.

One time, I hit an overhanging branch and the ball hit the green and rolled back into the bunker. After the shot, I grounded the club thinking that it was going to make it out, and was told that I incurred the penalties as the ball rolled back in.

Where exactly was the ball when you grounded the club?

If it was outside the bunker, did you lift the club before the ball rolled back in?

[DaveP043]

30 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Yes, he gets the penalty, because the club hit the sand with the ball in the same bunker as a result of a swing (flunging it?!?). It would be less penal to count it as a shot, as opposed to grounding the club. Personally, I wouldn't let him know until after quite a few beers. . .

Beer solves many problems!

[Rulesman]

33 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Yes, he gets the penalty, because the club hit the sand with the ball in the same bunker as a result of a swing (flunging it?!?). It would be less penal to count it as a shot, as opposed to grounding the club. Personally, I wouldn't let him know until after quite a few beers. . .

13-4/21 ?

[Dormie1360]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Yes, he gets the penalty, because the club hit the sand with the ball in the same bunker as a result of a swing (flunging it?!?). It would be less penal to count it as a shot, as opposed to grounding the club. Personally, I wouldn't let him know until after quite a few beers. . .

I have to think about this one.  If I understand correctly the ball was outside the bunker when the stroke was made, so I'm not sure there should be a penalty with regard to his stroke.  When his ball came to rest in the bunker, however, his club touched the hazard, I'm leaning more towards 13-4/21 as you are also able to throw clubs in the bunker as well.

[Golfingdad]

59 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Yes, he gets the penalty, because the club hit the sand with the ball in the same bunker as a result of a swing (flunging it?!?). It would be less penal to count it as a shot, as opposed to grounding the club. Personally, I wouldn't let him know until after quite a few beers. . .

It wasn't as a result of his swing.  It was just a disgusted flipping of the club after the swing.  I'm researching and finding that you're allowed to place clubs or a rake in a bunker.  And ...

 

25 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

13-4/21 ?

... you're even allowed to throw a rake into the bunker while your ball was still in there.  I'm not so sure that a club that you're not holding falls under "Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club."

Unrelated, but amusing to me nonetheless is decision 13-4/35.5, which says that you can swing your club into the sand after hitting a shot that ends up rolling back into the same bunker provided that you remove the club from the sand before the ball reaches the bunker.  I'm sure that there are other examples, but its fascinating because the situation before the shot, the situation after the shot, and the actions performed by the player can all be identical, but just because one guy was a little quicker with his anger than another, he saves a penalty.

2 minutes ago, Dormie1360 said:

I have to think about this one.  If I understand correctly the ball was outside the bunker when the stroke was made, so I'm not sure there should be a penalty with regard to his stroke.

That's correct.  Ball and player both outside bunker, ball chunked forward 5 yards into bunker, then club tossed into same bunker (nowhere near the ball).