Stack-n-Tilt - Still Screwing up Golfers after All These Years

[RFKFREAK]

2 minutes ago, dkolo said:

Sure it does. If the ball can tell what I'm trying to do, it'll do the opposite. So if I try to confuse it, it might do what I want by accident.

You graduated at the top of your class in law school, didn't you? 

[mvmac]

13 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

Here is another wording I found on the web

With the stack and tilt swing, the golfer's weight remains "stacked" on the front foot throughout the swing while his or her back "tilts" forward to keep the spine and shoulders over the ball [source: Logan]. This differs from the traditional swing, in which a golfer's weight shifts from front to back during the backswing, and then forward on the downswing.

Per Andy and Mike, that's not correct with what the golfer is stacking and the tilt is towards the ball/ground, not forward (target). 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

And we (Dave Wedzik, Mike, myself, anyone associated with Golf Evolution) never taught an S&T that resembled the crap displayed in this thread, or seen often on the Facebook group, etc. And within months we'd changed the way we described the way the hips work relative to the way the spine worked, and other things.

Exactly.

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, RFKFREAK said:

Sarcasm? 

No, I was just trying to address what I thought was a sarcastic statement.

[Dave2512]

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2015 at 1:35 PM, RFKFREAK said:

I'm confused.

Nothing you saw or learned from who's head guy, GolfTec's or someone elses?

I took lessons from GT's National Director, at the time he was listed on the S&T site as the only S&T instructor in CO. Actually met with him afterhours at the GT corp. headquarters. I contacted him to teach me S&T and nothing he showed me in the two hours I spent with him resembled that, two lessons about two weeks apart with him sending me video follow-up. I had already read the book was a 10 handicap and had a little experience so we go right into it.

I felt he was knowledgeable and likely would have continued with him if he wasn't so far away, and he wanted me to sign up via GT and his personal rates were considerably higher than what you'd pay walking into Golfsmith. Which pushed me to look for someone closer that billed a-la carte, he wanted me to give him around $2500 up front if I recall.

[Lihu]

2 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

I took lessons from GT's National Director, at the time he was listed on the S&T site as the only S&T instructor in CO. Actually met with him afterhours at the GT corp. headquarters. I contacted him to teach me S&T and nothing he showed me in the two hours I spent with him resembled that, two lessons about two weeks apart with him sending me video follow-up. I had already read the book and had a little experience so we go right into it.

I felt he was knowledgeable and likely would have continued with him if he wasn't so far away, and he wanted me to sign up via GT and his personal rates were considerably higher than what you'd pay walking into Golfsmith. Which pushed me to look for someone closer that billed a-la carte, he wanted me to give him around $2500 up front if I recall.

GT seems to push for the $3600 "package deal". I would guess that they have pretty decent golfers coming out of that program, and probably country club patrons as I've nver met someone who took this entire course before.

[Dave2512]

4 minutes ago, Lihu said:

GT seems to push for the $3600 "package deal". I would guess that they have pretty decent golfers coming out of that program, and probably country club patrons as I've nver met someone who took this entire course before.

No idea but I think that's for a year. The problem I had was I didn't want to pay upfront knowing driving more than 100 miles round trip and having to take time off work to do it would be a problem for me. It seems spendy but the instructor I eventually ended up with charged $120/hr and was super busy. I actually stopped asking him to make time for me after not getting an appointment for more than 6 months.

I'd be okay with $300 a month if I could pay as I go. I suffered through regression until late summer this year due to no instruction. I continued to work on what I was doing with my old guy but without feedback no real way to know if I was on the right path. My handicap spiked 2 points before I started playing well enough to get my scores down to where they with when I was being taught in 2014. If the GT guy was closer I'd start seeing him again. I didn't think he was stuck in any one thing, just happened to work for GT and was/is a S&T instructor.

[iacas]

GolfTec is not really the topic here and once again it's @Lihu leading the charge to go off topic.

[scopek]

On 12/26/2015 at 9:33 PM, iacas said:

I'm not a 15. The OP is not a 15. Mike's not a 15. To whom are you referring?

And we (Dave Wedzik, Mike, myself, anyone associated with Golf Evolution) never taught an S&T that resembled the crap displayed in this thread, or seen often on the Facebook group, etc. And within months we'd changed the way we described the way the hips work relative to the way the spine worked, and other things.

 Do you have a link to a video or thread that discusses the difference between how you guys describe the hips vs. the S&T description of the spine? 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, scopek said:

 Do you have a link to a video or thread that discusses the difference between how you guys describe the hips vs. the S&T description of the spine? 

I don't think so. Suffice to say the spine does not extend or left tilt very much. 10 degrees or less. Barely at all.

[scopek]

Just now, iacas said:

I don't think so. Suffice to say the spine does not extend or left tilt very much. 10 degrees or less. Barely at all.

Ok. So what causes the most of the leverage or extension in the backswing and follow through? The hips and arms? If my memory is correct, Mike and Andy talk about the change in tilt from the spine changing to being a powerful source of power. I remember where Andy is doing the axe man demonstration and showing how the spine changes. Is that not correct or are we talking about two different things? 

[Vinsk]

31 minutes ago, scopek said:

Ok. So what causes the most of the leverage or extension in the backswing and follow through? The hips and arms? If my memory is correct, Mike and Andy talk about the change in tilt from the spine changing to being a powerful source of power. I remember where Andy is doing the axe man demonstration and showing how the spine changes. Is that not correct or are we talking about two different things? 

What are we talking about?

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, scopek said:

So what causes the most of the leverage or extension in the backswing and follow through?

Knees changing flex and the hips. Spine doesn't do much. 

[scopek]

34 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Knees changing flex and the hips. Spine doesn't do much. 

Thanks. So essentially, the power is primarily from the knees pushing off the ground (extension to flexion) while the hips slide and then are pushed forward past impact? 

[mvmac]

4 minutes ago, scopek said:

Thanks. So essentially, the power is primarily from the knees pushing off the ground (extension to flexion) while the hips slide and then are pushed forward past impact? 

Yes, along with the arms and rotation of the body. Arm speed is very important.

[scopek]

4 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Yes, along with the arms and rotation of the body. Arm speed is very important.

I feel like that his something that they don't talk very much about in S&T. The only time I think they mention arm speed on the videos when they talk about pulling the left arm down off the chest from the top of the backswing to get to impact (i.e. releasing the 4th accumulator?).  

[mchepp]

2 hours ago, scopek said:

I feel like that his something that they don't talk very much about in S&T. The only time I think they mention arm speed on the videos when they talk about pulling the left arm down off the chest from the top of the backswing to get to impact (i.e. releasing the 4th accumulator?).  

I would say that arm speed while not a focus of S&T, it could be part of there teaching. I would know because in a lesson with Mike Bennett right after S&T debuted that was a specific instruction Mike told me. 

The point of the thread in my mind is not to compare or discuss the specifics of S&T per say but rather mourn what has become a relatively respectful way to hit the ball into an instructional nightmare of taking something to far. 

I am honestly a bit surprised that it has gotten to this level. When I met Mike I found him to be respectful and generally a pretty nice guy. In the end though it seems they have gotten lost in the "trying" to be something different. 

[Dave2512]

Maybe or it's just bad instruction from high ranking instructors that have taken it too far. Could be exaggeration of certain pieces? 

 

[Lihu]

53 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Maybe or it's just bad instruction from high ranking instructors that have taken it too far. Could be exaggeration of certain pieces? 

 

Do you mean like exaggerated drill swings to emphasize some movement?