Why Isn't It OK To Drive Your Push Carts or Trolleys Through The Green?

[Golfingdad]

Think about this not uncommon scenario:  A golfer hits his approach onto the front of the green with a back pin, where the next tee is just beyond the green.  Typically, what I'm assuming most would do, is walk and push their cart around the green to the back, near the next tee, then grab their putter and walk through the green (obviously careful to avoid others lines) back towards their ball and then go through their putting routine, whatever it may be.

So, throwing out the persons putting routine, since everybody is different, what we have is a person effectively walking the length of the green twice, right?

Now, consider if that person was allowed to push their cart through the green.  I would presume that they'd just park it next to their ball like they do on the rest of the course.  Again, throwing out the putting routine, now what we have is a person walking the length of the green once and pushing their cart the length of the green once, correct?

Clearly, this could do nothing but speed up play, right?  Slightly, at best, in the cases of quick players with decent etiquette, but likely more for slow players or those with poor etiquette and no foresight, who may have left their cart in front of the green in my original scenario.

"But, duh, it's not really a good trade off here when we're sacrificing course conditions for faster play.  Who wants to play fast on chewed up greens?!?!"

That's certainly the first reaction of most, but does it make sense?  What does an average golfing male weigh?  200 pounds?  OK, so think about it.  A 200 pound man, walking the length of the green twice versus a 200 pound man walking it once while pushing his cart once as well.

In the first scenario, each step is exerting something close enough to 200 pounds of pressure, often through shoes with spikes of some kind on the bottom of them, for two runs of the green, whereas in the second, he's doing it once and the cart is doing it once.  Well, how much does a cart weigh?  Certainly nothing close to 200 pounds.  50, maybe?  If its soaking wet.  AND the pressure is even distributed over THREE wheels that are always on the ground.  So, maybe at most, we're talking about 20 pounds of pressure exerted on the ground through smooth wheels.  I'm thinking that the cart is doing a heck of a lot less damage to the green than the man.  Not to mention that with the cart there is no risk of feet-dragging either.

So why is the idea of carts/trolleys on the green shunned so easily?  I think we should reconsider.

[boogielicious]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Think about this not uncommon scenario:  A golfer hits his approach onto the front of the green with a back pin, where the next tee is just beyond the green.  Typically, what I'm assuming most would do, is walk and push their cart around the green to the back, near the next tee, then grab their putter and walk through the green (obviously careful to avoid others lines) back towards their ball and then go through their putting routine, whatever it may be.

So, throwing out the persons putting routine, since everybody is different, what we have is a person effectively walking the length of the green twice, right?

Now, consider if that person was allowed to push their cart through the green.  I would presume that they'd just park it next to their ball like they do on the rest of the course.  Again, throwing out the putting routine, now what we have is a person walking the length of the green once and pushing their cart the length of the green once, correct?

Clearly, this could do nothing but speed up play, right?  Slightly, at best, in the cases of quick players with decent etiquette, but likely more for slow players or those with poor etiquette and no foresight, who may have left their cart in front of the green in my original scenario.

"But, duh, it's not really a good trade off here when we're sacrificing course conditions for faster play.  Who wants to play fast on chewed up greens?!?!"

That's certainly the first reaction of most, but does it make sense?  What does an average golfing male weigh?  200 pounds?  OK, so think about it.  A 200 pound man, walking the length of the green twice versus a 200 pound man walking it once while pushing his cart once as well.

In the first scenario, each step is exerting something close enough to 200 pounds of pressure, often through shoes with spikes of some kind on the bottom of them, for two runs of the green, whereas in the second, he's doing it once and the cart is doing it once.  Well, how much does a cart weigh?  Certainly nothing close to 200 pounds.  50, maybe?  If its soaking wet.  AND the pressure is even distributed over THREE wheels that are always on the ground.  So, maybe at most, we're talking about 20 pounds of pressure exerted on the ground through smooth wheels.  I'm thinking that the cart is doing a heck of a lot less damage to the green than the man.  Not to mention that with the cart there is no risk of feet-dragging either.

So why is the idea of carts/trolleys on the green shunned so easily?  I think we should reconsider.

I've heard from a post a while ago that some courses in Australia want you to do this. I couldn't find the post. They claimed it actually helps level the green surface.

[rkim291968]

I've seen their tire tracks on greens.   No need to add those to foot/spike/ball marks.   Also, many push carts (like mine) has two wheels and it's easy for a non wheel part to touch and damage green.   If you allow carts to go through green, some golfers will end up resting their carts on green, wheel and non-wheel parts.  My 2 cents.

[Golfingdad]

8 minutes ago, rkim291968 said:

I've seen their tire tracks on greens.   No need to add those to foot/spike/ball marks.   Also, many push carts (like mine) has two wheels and it's easy for a non wheel part to touch and damage green.   If you allow carts to go through green, some golfers will end up resting their carts on green, wheel and non-wheel parts.  My 2 cents.

Yeah, I wouldn't advocate for pull carts (the two wheelers with a foot) to be allowed to stop on the greens for that exact reason, but solely the three wheeled push carts.  And note that if done right, we wouldn't be ADDING more wear to the greens, we'd be replacing foot traffic with lighter wheel traffic.

Are you sure that those tracks are from a push cart and not from a mower?  Mowers are a lot heavier than carts, aren't they?

[Abu3baid]

27 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Think about this not uncommon scenario:  A golfer hits his approach onto the front of the green with a back pin, where the next tee is just beyond the green.  Typically, what I'm assuming most would do, is walk and push their cart around the green to the back, near the next tee, then grab their putter and walk through the green (obviously careful to avoid others lines) back towards their ball and then go through their putting routine, whatever it may be.

So, throwing out the persons putting routine, since everybody is different, what we have is a person effectively walking the length of the green twice, right?

Now, consider if that person was allowed to push their cart through the green.  I would presume that they'd just park it next to their ball like they do on the rest of the course.  Again, throwing out the putting routine, now what we have is a person walking the length of the green once and pushing their cart the length of the green once, correct?

Clearly, this could do nothing but speed up play, right?  Slightly, at best, in the cases of quick players with decent etiquette, but likely more for slow players or those with poor etiquette and no foresight, who may have left their cart in front of the green in my original scenario.

"But, duh, it's not really a good trade off here when we're sacrificing course conditions for faster play.  Who wants to play fast on chewed up greens?!?!"

That's certainly the first reaction of most, but does it make sense?  What does an average golfing male weigh?  200 pounds?  OK, so think about it.  A 200 pound man, walking the length of the green twice versus a 200 pound man walking it once while pushing his cart once as well.

In the first scenario, each step is exerting something close enough to 200 pounds of pressure, often through shoes with spikes of some kind on the bottom of them, for two runs of the green, whereas in the second, he's doing it once and the cart is doing it once.  Well, how much does a cart weigh?  Certainly nothing close to 200 pounds.  50, maybe?  If its soaking wet.  AND the pressure is even distributed over THREE wheels that are always on the ground.  So, maybe at most, we're talking about 20 pounds of pressure exerted on the ground through smooth wheels.  I'm thinking that the cart is doing a heck of a lot less damage to the green than the man.  Not to mention that with the cart there is no risk of feet-dragging either.

So why is the idea of carts/trolleys on the green shunned so easily?  I think we should reconsider.

I am not convinced that this saves that much time..  How often does this happen?  I mean that the pin is in the back, and the next tee is on the other side and not immediately on the right or left of the green? 

Never mind that, let's say I hit it to the front and my ball ends up 4 feet short of the hole and since I was furthest away what do you do here? 

• Mark first
• Walk back
• Take cart to other side
• Wait my turn

or

• Take my cart after put to other side
• then go mark

in the first I have saved some time because I marked first, but technical I have walked the green twice which in your scenario is what you are trying to avoid.  In the second I have delayed everyone or someone from putting because they are waiting for me to go out the cart out of the way before I mark.

When I pull my cart around the first time (greens aren't so big that it takes that much time) and I walk back that's it, I putt and go mark and wait..  You can be bringing your cart around while others are still getting onto the green anyway..

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Yeah, I wouldn't advocate for pull carts (the two wheelers with a foot) to be allowed to stop on the greens for that exact reason, but solely the three wheeled push carts.  And note that if done right, we wouldn't be ADDING more wear to the greens, we'd be replacing foot traffic with lighter wheel traffic.

Are you sure that those tracks are from a push cart and not from a mower?  Mowers are a lot heavier than carts, aren't they?

Note that I am questioning the replacement of wheel traffic in my example.. I'm contending that you are just adding wheel traffic.

[rkim291968]

5 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Are you sure that those tracks are from a push cart and not from a mower?

Yes, they were mine ... .   I jumped across a green to save time and looked back in dismay.   Never again.

[Golfingdad]

1 minute ago, Abu3baid said:

I am not convinced that this saves that much time..  How often does this happen?  I mean that the pin is in the back, and the next tee is on the other side and not immediately on the right or left of the green? 

Never mind that, let's say I hit it to the front and my ball ends up 4 feet short of the hole and since I was furthest away what do you do here? 

• Mark first
• Walk back
• Take cart to other side
• Wait my turn

or

• Take my cart after put to other side
• then go mark

in the first I have saved some time because I marked first, but technical I have walked the green twice which in your scenario is what you are trying to avoid.  In the second I have delayed everyone or someone from putting because they are waiting for me to go out the cart out of the way before I mark.

When I pull my cart around the first time (greens aren't so big that it takes that much time) and I walk back that's it, I putt and go mark and wait..  You can be bringing your cart around while others are still getting onto the green anyway..

Neither.  You take your cart with you - obviously slightly off to the side to stay out of others lines, then mark, then wait, then putt when it's your turn again, then move on.  No backtracking.

Keep in mind that I'm not necessarily saying that we should all start pushing our carts on the green, but moreso, perhaps we should at least not worry about it.  I'm not seeing how it would hurt the green or slow down play so I'm thinking that we should at least not worry if some people want to do it this way.

---

The idea popped in my head while playing the other day and seeing a woman push her cart across the corner of the green.  My first though was "how dare she!!!  What's wrong with that dumb lady?!?!"  Then I thought about it some more and realized maybe it's not worth worrying about.

Also of note:  I do not own nor use a push cart.  I ride when a driving cart is included in the greens fee and I walk and carry otherwise.

[gregsandiego]

Good topic. I do a mental calculation and try to put the cart where the total walk time is minimum. Sometimes that's off to the side like others have said.

I know one guy that insists on bringing the cart up to the next tee every time even if it means doubling back. So you end up with lots of extra walking as you say.

[DaveP043]

I won't argue against the pace of play consideration, I agree it has the potential to speed up play by at least a little..  As for the damage standpoint, when we walk we're spreading our 200 pounds or so over something like 30 or 40 square inches.  The weight of the bag on a trolley is concentrated over a much smaller area, so may result in a higher contact pressure, so a greater potential to damage the surface.  Even the same pressure, over a smaller area, has a greater potential to cause disturbance.  I'm actually a soils engineer, so I do know that.  

Having said all that, I think the real issue is that there's no way to play golf without walking on the green, but rolling a trolley over the green IS avoidable, and so probably should be avoided.  Where greens are concerned, less traffic is better.  

And I'm with @Golfingdad, I don't use a trolley, I either ride or I carry my bag.  

[Missouri Swede]

When I first saw the thread title, I was a little confused, because the ONLY place I take my cart is "through the green."  Then I saw the OP, and saw it meant "on the green."  Okay, reset train of thought.

When I encounter this (hole at 12:00, ball at 6:00), it depends on if I'm by myself or with others.  
With others:  wherever it's least distracting/in the way of other players pitching/chipping/walking onto the green.  Prefer something around 3:00 or 9:00.  I don't know that my walking around the green is any different than a player using a motorized cart.  In fact, sometimes I leave my handcart next to the cartpath near the motorized cart(s) of the other players.  
By myself: wherever makes it easiest to walk on/off the green (usually least ground slope or away from bunkers).  Sometimes this means I leave it at 6:00.

[Club Rat]

There are times when the player who is away could use a little extra time, other players in the group could play out to give the player time to (travel their equipment, if needed).

Communication of players in the group should recognize when an occurrence is required.

The narrow wheels of push carts can produce narrow ruts on soft greens and sometimes leave tracks along with mud which may have been on wheels.

Wheels and shoes sometime transport debriefs onto green surfaces without a players knowledge of the occurrence.

Another situation which may sometime occur by accident, a twig or branch will get lodged in mowers, pull carts and drag across a green.... (O' my!!!)

Most courses discourage anyone pulling their carts across greens.

[ScouseJohnny]

I put my trolley (push cart) close to the edge of the green, but I'd never take it on the putting surface.

I agree that carefully taking a push cart near to the green can be a time saver; I really don't think we need to go the extra step and have people rolling their carts on to the green. The extra time saved would be so minimal as to be practically inconsequential, and I don't really want to see anything on a green other than golf balls and golfers.

Edited December 29, 2015 by ScouseJohnny

[rkim291968]

22 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I won't argue against the pace of play consideration, I agree it has the potential to speed up play by at least a little..  As for the damage standpoint, when we walk we're spreading our 200 pounds or so over something like 30 or 40 square inches.  The weight of the bag on a trolley is concentrated over a much smaller area, so may result in a higher contact pressure, so a greater potential to damage the surface.  Even the same pressure, over a smaller area, has a greater potential to cause disturbance.  I'm actually a soils engineer, so I do know that.  

@GolfingdadHaving said all that, I think the real issue is that there's no way to play golf without walking on the green, but rolling a trolley over the green IS avoidable, and so probably should be avoided.  Where greens are concerned, less traffic is better. 

This is right on.   I couldn't articulate this in my earlier posts.   This makes perfect sense to me.

If I were to add, there are carts with a 3rd wheel which is smaller and narrower.   There are also electric push/pull carts which can be really heavy.

[Golfingdad]

35 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Where greens are concerned, less traffic is better.

This is precisely what made me decide to start the thread, and to use the hypothetical that I did.  I feel like being able to push your cart across the green in that scenario would be less total traffic for the green.

 

35 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

As for the damage standpoint, when we walk we're spreading our 200 pounds or so over something like 30 or 40 square inches.  The weight of the bag on a trolley is concentrated over a much smaller area, so may result in a higher contact pressure, so a greater potential to damage the surface.  Even the same pressure, over a smaller area, has a greater potential to cause disturbance.  I'm actually a soils engineer, so I do know that.

This would be a fair comparison if we all walked flat-footed, right?  But since we go heel-toe, heel-toe, then aren't we really concentrating that weight over much smaller portions multiple times each step, more similar to the size of the wheel?

I don't push so I can't compare, but I know that on greens that are softer, I leave footprints - that usually bounce back quickly.  For the record, I'm 230 with spikeless shoes.

 

19 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Most courses discourage anyone pulling their carts across greens.

Yes, I believe most all of them, in the US at least, discourage this.

 

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

I've heard from a post a while ago that some courses in Australia want you to do this. I couldn't find the post. They claimed it actually helps level the green surface.

Found it, @boogielicious: http://www.golfdigest.com/story/golf-in-australia-geoff-shackelford 

Relevant excerpt:

Quote

Here's the best part: heftier-wheeled manual carts have been around Aussie links forever and are even considered part of the maintenance plan. At every elite club I pulled into, you're not met by a pretty-boy Disneyland greeter, but instead by a row of free buggies. Very few golfers Down Under carry their bag, and caddies appear almost nonexistent. (Motorized carts are discouraged, though sadly they're appearing at more and more courses.) Most of the standard buggies feature a small sand bucket dangling from the center rod for filling divot holes. And when golfers approach the greens, they're encouraged to push the unit right on across. That simple act--which never feels right to an American no matter how many times you do it--toughens and smooths the greens in the thinking of Australian superintendents. And in a practical sense, it saves an immense amount of pushcart time avoiding the annoying circumvention of what Americans coddle: the putting surface. With less of the chemical dependence that can lead to thatch build-up and the need for frequent aerification, it's no coincidence that Australians sport firmer, faster, smoother and more disease-resistant putting surfaces that are a fraction of the American price to build and maintain.

 

[DaveP043]

Just now, Golfingdad said:

This would be a fair comparison if we all walked flat-footed, right?  But since we go heel-toe, heel-toe, then aren't we really concentrating that weight over much smaller portions multiple times each step, similar to the size of the wheel?

Yeah, I realized that as I was writing it, but I plunged on anyway.  I still think it goes back to minimizing the things we can (i.e. trolley traffic) and accepting the things we have to accept (foot traffic).

[Golfingdad]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Yeah, I realized that as I was writing it, but I plunged on anyway.  I still think it goes back to minimizing the things we can (i.e. trolley traffic) and accepting the things we have to accept (foot traffic).

Yes, my idea assumes that people would understand this was for minimizing the overall wear on the greens and not just a green light to go all willy-nilly all over the place.  But the latter is probably just as likely a result as the former.  We all know what happens when you assume.

I would, however, see something like this being doable at a place like the club I was at when I thought of it - my brothers fairly small, blue collar, country club which is littered with walkers with push carts.  And being a private club, education and enforcement would be a heck of a lot easier than if a muni course just announced one day that you could roll through the greens.

[DaveP043]

That was an interesting article about Australian golf, and their encouraging people to roll their clubs across the green.  I thought back to playing in Scotland, where most of the greens were so firm you couldn't even leave a ballmark, let alone a footprint.  Certainly rolling a trolley over that grass couldn't cause any damage at all.  Maybe the Australian approach will catch on in the US, as courses learn to use less water and fewer chemicals.  This could also go to the green speed debate that was mentioned in the Dottie Pepper thread.  To make greens fast, many places mow the grass really tight, requiring more water to keep the grass alive in hot weather, which leads to more rolling and mowing to keep them fast......If we learn to accept slightly slower greens, the turf will be healthier with less maintenance effort, and perhaps we won't be so worried about the minimal damage a push cart could cause.  

An interesting thread to start, to challenge our preconceived notions.  I'll admit, I can definitely see some course conditions where a change wouldn't cause a bit of a problem.

[Golfingdad]

8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

An interesting thread to start, to challenge our preconceived notions.

Thanks, that's all it is.  Just trying to start discussion and get people talking.