How much does driver technology really matter?

[ppine]

I have a Taylor Made 320 ti from about 1997. It launches the ball just fine.

I used to hit persimmon woods really far, but the penalty for a mishit was much greater. There were some 150 yard drives with those.

Modern technology is fine, but it is easy to reach diminishing returns really fast. I will probably never buy a new gold club again, because the used ones out there are so good, readily available and cheap.

[Brian96]

Update: I went to a local store, the only place I could find that has a real launch monitor (GC2), and hit a good amount of drivers. I started off with my old driver to get a baseline, then moved to the new ones. I was at the mercy of what ever they had in stock with an extra stiff shaft, which is where he said I should be. My club head speed was 108-110.

I hit the Callaway XR, Cobra Fly Z+, TM AeroBurner, Nike Vapor Flex, and Ping G30. Actually, I'm not sure they were all X-stiff, but anyway, here is what I discovered. I hit at least 5 shots with each club and narrowed them down based on the dispersion, feel/forgiveness, and sound. I hit the Ping very well and it felt good, but just couldn't get over the sound of it. Being inside, it actually hurt my ears. I'm sure it wouldn't be that bad on the course, but it was too much to handle. I came down to the Nike Vapor Flex and the Cobra Fly Z+. Hit a few more with each and saw that the spin rates and dispersion with the Nike was much more consistent. I was hitting all of them within 10yds of the center line, and the misses were with my normal draw. The Cobra was nice, but just a little more inconsistent. As compared with my old driver (Callaway Razr Hawk), the spin rates were about 200 rpm higher than the Nike (2000 avg). Plus the Nike just felt pure off the face. The shaft was a 60g Diamana x-Flex, so I think that had a lot to do with it. My old shaft was 85g. With all that and the adjustability options it has, that was what I went with. It was more than I went in wanting to spend, but I'm happy with it.

So, after that I took it to the course over the weekend and had some great results. First, on the range I made some adjustments and ended up with it on 11.5 degrees and the weights towards the back. I didn't see a lot of difference between the loft change, from 9.5 to 11.5, but I left it there. On the course, it was spectacular. I hit 20 of 27 fairways, which I am extremely happy about. Of the misses, a couple were on me, some really bad swings. The others weren't horrible, only missed the fairway by 2-5 yards.

Bottom line: If you are like me and want to hit more fairways, get a driver fitting. Don't just settle for something off the rack. Also, I'm not brand loyal at all. I went in completely open to whatever was handed to me. That's reflected in my bag too. I now have 4 different brands represented. Nike Driver, Titleist fairway metals and wedges, Mizuno irons, and a Ping putter.

-Brian

p.s. I hate the grip that came with the Nike (GP tour wrap), had to change it out to a midsize velvet.

[RussUK]

I think it also depends on how often you will actually be using driver. I use a Ping G5 and love it but have always looked at ne drivers. My home club has 3 courses, two 18 and one 9 hole. Due to time constraints i oftem play the 9 hole and the longets hole is 250yds and designed to make it hard to get thee in one.

Lats year i played more 9 hole rounds than on the 18 holers so for me keeping th G5 made sense.

Then you have the people like my Uncle, he thinks his way round the course and i have hardly ever seen him hit driver (built it himself and he tonks it good and proper) but he wipes the floor with his playing partners most days

[Brian96]

3 minutes ago, RussUK said:

I think it also depends on how often you will actually be using driver.

Agree, and with a driver that I can hit 70% of fairways with instead of 50%, I'll hit it a lot more, and be in better position than if I hit 3w.

[gregsandiego]

1 hour ago, Brian96 said:

Update: I went to a local store, the only place I could find that has a real launch monitor (GC2), and hit a good amount of drivers. I started off with my old driver to get a baseline, then moved to the new ones. I was at the mercy of what ever they had in stock with an extra stiff shaft, which is where he said I should be. My club head speed was 108-110.

I hit the Callaway XR, Cobra Fly Z+, TM AeroBurner, Nike Vapor Flex, and Ping G30. Actually, I'm not sure they were all X-stiff, but anyway, here is what I discovered. I hit at least 5 shots with each club and narrowed them down based on the dispersion, feel/forgiveness, and sound. I hit the Ping very well and it felt good, but just couldn't get over the sound of it. Being inside, it actually hurt my ears. I'm sure it wouldn't be that bad on the course, but it was too much to handle. I came down to the Nike Vapor Flex and the Cobra Fly Z+. Hit a few more with each and saw that the spin rates and dispersion with the Nike was much more consistent. I was hitting all of them within 10yds of the center line, and the misses were with my normal draw. The Cobra was nice, but just a little more inconsistent. As compared with my old driver (Callaway Razr Hawk), the spin rates were about 200 rpm higher than the Nike (2000 avg). Plus the Nike just felt pure off the face. The shaft was a 60g Diamana x-Flex, so I think that had a lot to do with it. My old shaft was 85g. With all that and the adjustability options it has, that was what I went with. It was more than I went in wanting to spend, but I'm happy with it.

So, after that I took it to the course over the weekend and had some great results. First, on the range I made some adjustments and ended up with it on 11.5 degrees and the weights towards the back. I didn't see a lot of difference between the loft change, from 9.5 to 11.5, but I left it there. On the course, it was spectacular. I hit 20 of 27 fairways, which I am extremely happy about. Of the misses, a couple were on me, some really bad swings. The others weren't horrible, only missed the fairway by 2-5 yards.

Bottom line: If you are like me and want to hit more fairways, get a driver fitting. Don't just settle for something off the rack. Also, I'm not brand loyal at all. I went in completely open to whatever was handed to me. That's reflected in my bag too. I now have 4 different brands represented. Nike Driver, Titleist fairway metals and wedges, Mizuno irons, and a Ping putter.

-Brian

p.s. I hate the grip that came with the Nike (GP tour wrap), had to change it out to a midsize velvet.

What was changed during the driver fitting ?

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, Brian96 said:

Update: I went to a local store, the only place I could find that has a real launch monitor (GC2), and hit a good amount of drivers. I started off with my old driver to get a baseline, then moved to the new ones. I was at the mercy of what ever they had in stock with an extra stiff shaft, which is where he said I should be. My club head speed was 108-110.

I hit the Callaway XR, Cobra Fly Z+, TM AeroBurner, Nike Vapor Flex, and Ping G30. Actually, I'm not sure they were all X-stiff, but anyway, here is what I discovered. I hit at least 5 shots with each club and narrowed them down based on the dispersion, feel/forgiveness, and sound. I hit the Ping very well and it felt good, but just couldn't get over the sound of it. Being inside, it actually hurt my ears. I'm sure it wouldn't be that bad on the course, but it was too much to handle. I came down to the Nike Vapor Flex and the Cobra Fly Z+. Hit a few more with each and saw that the spin rates and dispersion with the Nike was much more consistent. I was hitting all of them within 10yds of the center line, and the misses were with my normal draw. The Cobra was nice, but just a little more inconsistent. As compared with my old driver (Callaway Razr Hawk), the spin rates were about 200 rpm higher than the Nike (2000 avg). Plus the Nike just felt pure off the face. The shaft was a 60g Diamana x-Flex, so I think that had a lot to do with it. My old shaft was 85g. With all that and the adjustability options it has, that was what I went with. It was more than I went in wanting to spend, but I'm happy with it.

So, after that I took it to the course over the weekend and had some great results. First, on the range I made some adjustments and ended up with it on 11.5 degrees and the weights towards the back. I didn't see a lot of difference between the loft change, from 9.5 to 11.5, but I left it there. On the course, it was spectacular. I hit 20 of 27 fairways, which I am extremely happy about. Of the misses, a couple were on me, some really bad swings. The others weren't horrible, only missed the fairway by 2-5 yards.

Bottom line: If you are like me and want to hit more fairways, get a driver fitting. Don't just settle for something off the rack. Also, I'm not brand loyal at all. I went in completely open to whatever was handed to me. That's reflected in my bag too. I now have 4 different brands represented. Nike Driver, Titleist fairway metals and wedges, Mizuno irons, and a Ping putter.

-Brian

p.s. I hate the grip that came with the Nike (GP tour wrap), had to change it out to a midsize velvet.

GC2 usually reports 110 club head speed for people hitting over 300 yards and hitting 74% fairways at those distances is really amazing.

Driver fitting is really good, but those results are nothing short of amazingly good.

[Brian96]

1 hour ago, gregsandiego said:

What was changed during the driver fitting ?

Besides from the different drivers, just the weight of the shaft. the 60g x-flex worked out great. Not sure how much of an actual fitting it was. He didn't do much but have me hit some with my driver, then he started to hand me options he thought I should try. Honestly I didn't pay much attention to the different shafts that were in each club. I didn't want anything to bias my swing. Just focused on making consistent swings and let the data inform me. I think it went well.

12 minutes ago, Lihu said:

GC2 usually reports 110 club head speed for people hitting over 300 yards and hitting 74% fairways at those distances is really amazing.

Driver fitting is really good, but those results are nothing short of amazingly good.

Thanks, but I should give a little more details on those results. The first round I hit 11/14 fairways the weather was 40 degrees and windy. My good drives were only going about 260, so that might've helped them stay in the fairway. The second round I hit 9/13, and the weather was a bit better, 60 but still windy. Only hit 300 a couple times when the wind wasn't hurting.

[ppine]

It probably matters a lot to handicappers in the single digits. For everyone else, the equipment they currently have is not likely to be holding back their ability to score at all. Sometimes new equipment gives people confidence. The sport seems awfully technical to me now after having been away from it for many years.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, Brian96 said:

Thanks, but I should give a little more details on those results. The first round I hit 11/14 fairways the weather was 40 degrees and windy. My good drives were only going about 260, so that might've helped them stay in the fairway. The second round I hit 9/13, and the weather was a bit better, 60 but still windy. Only hit 300 a couple times when the wind wasn't hurting.

Ah, makes sense.

[Jeremie Boop]

20 minutes ago, ppine said:

It probably matters a lot to handicappers in the single digits. For everyone else, the equipment they currently have is not likely to be holding back their ability to score at all. Sometimes new equipment gives people confidence. The sport seems awfully technical to me now after having been away from it for many years.

That's debatable. It depends on what they have now. If they have an older, smaller headed driver, they could very well benefit from upgrading to a larger headed and more forgiving model. They could have been given something like a SLDR by a friend or family member which can be extremely difficult to be consistent with as well.

[saevel25]

23 minutes ago, ppine said:

It probably matters a lot to handicappers in the single digits. For everyone else, the equipment they currently have is not likely to be holding back their ability to score at all. Sometimes new equipment gives people confidence. The sport seems awfully technical to me now after having been away from it for many years.

Given that most high handicappers are not going to hit the ball long. Being that the case most drivers are designed to encompass a wide range of golfers, typically the mid to high handicappers who don't swing that hard. 

I would say back about 10-15 years ago it was tough to find a driver to fit a high swing speed. They produce too much spin. They had to play less than 9 degrees of loft. If you got 10-11 degrees of launch with 3000 rpm you were doing good. Phil played with a 4 degree driver if I remember right. Dustin Johnson is playing a 10-10.5 degree driver. 10-15 years ago that would have been absurd for his swing speed. 

Now you have drivers that have shifted the CG lower and more forward. Now higher swing speeds can get that low to sub 2000 range. They can play drivers with 10-11 degrees of loft. They can launch hit higher with less spin and get substantial distance with out gaining extra ball speed off the club face. 

Yea, the whole fitting process is the major step forward as well. Accurate launch monitors and golf fitters with years of data using them to be able to get you a club that fits your swing. That's where the biggest advancement as happened. Couple that with the wide variety of drivers on the market. If you can't find a driver for your game you are not looking hard enough. 

[808hacker]

How do you know that the driver technology is making the difference unless you hit with the same shaft? Or are we really talking driver+shaft = driver technology?

Every time I hear people talk about a new driver being awesome, it always involves a new shaft. I know this might not apply to the people on this forum who are generally much more knowledgeable and have access to much more testing equipment.

[Pretzel]

1 hour ago, 808hacker said:

How do you know that the driver technology is making the difference unless you hit with the same shaft? Or are we really talking driver+shaft = driver technology?

Every time I hear people talk about a new driver being awesome, it always involves a new shaft. I know this might not apply to the people on this forum who are generally much more knowledgeable and have access to much more testing equipment.

If you compare directly with the same shaft (which I did), or if you compare with a shaft of a very similar profile, your results will show the difference made by the head of the golf club. If your previous shaft was a decent fit for you, and you are fitted for the best shaft when you purchase a new driver, the difference should also be fairly negligible (unless your swing had changes that forced you to need a different shaft profile than you previously were fitted for). 

Shafts, once you find one with the proper profile, don't make a huge difference when it comes to switching to a new one. There's only so much you can do with the shaft, since the aerodynamics of it won't really change and the bend profile is something that is specific to the individual. If it ever happens that our technology is able to perfectly analyze a golf swing and easily manufacture shafts on the spot I could see creating custom shafts as being a big advancement in terms of shaft fitting, but I don't see what there really is to be done with the technology. As it is, many golfers do not benefit from lighter shafts (so lighter material construction isn't much use), and most golfers have a "normal" enough swing that the ability to create odd shaft profiles using different materials or construction techniques isn't going to provide much gain for most golfers. The biggest thing is just the advancement of technology allowing you to figure out what shaft is the best fit, which isn't so much a shaft advancement as it is a fitting advancement (but if you've been fit both times you purchased a driver the point is likely a near even comparison).

[808hacker]

>If you compare directly with the same shaft (which I did),

I figured that someone on this thread would have done this. The reason I ask is that I always hear people saying "I tried ____ driver and hit it way longer etc... or that it was really forgiving" but I have never heard anyone say - "I tried the new _____ driver with the same type of shaft I have". 

I don't know of many casual players that maintain the same shaft between driver changes. Also, just because a shaft is "stiff" and around the same weight and "kick point"/bend doesn't mean it feels the same.

In fact, I don't think I ever met someone that bought a new driver that maintained the same shaft - "someone" being a casual weekend player. 

Honestly, how many of you have heard your friends say they got 10 yards more per driver upgrade, yet when you play with them, they still hit it the same distance. 3 driver upgrades and they should be 30 yards longer.

 

>There's only so much you can do with the shaft

Wait, are you saying if I know I use a stiff shaft, 70g, mid-flex point, the brand or cost doesn't matter? Why are there huge differences in the prices of shafts? I was under the impression that the shafts do matter a lot and even with similar "specs" still vary widely when tested? Or are you saying once a shaft has been tested and spec'ed, then it doesn't matter what brand you use or how much you pay, as long as the new shaft "tests" close? The key being that you test/spec the shaft rather than just go by printed specs alone.

Thanks!

Edited March 2, 2016 by 808hacker

[bigalun]

Im really surprised you didn't go for a HL/LS model, you are of a standard that could easily justify it and couls squeeze monster numbers out of it. The number of high handicappers I know bought the SLDR or ping LS and think its rubbish is insane, purely because they cant hit the middle of the face.

Quote

I made some adjustments and ended up with it on 11.5 degrees and the weights towards the back. I didn't see a lot of difference between the loft change, from 9.5 to 11.5,

If you don't mind me asking, why did you do this on the course, id as a minimum expect my fitter to let me hit all the lofts and different weight positions on the launch monitor, how else would you know if the settings are optimal?

I do love the look of that Nike driver, I don't think I could get away with it with my swing tho, ill just look on with admiration and jealousy

[Brian96]

1 hour ago, bigalun said:

If you don't mind me asking, why did you do this on the course, id as a minimum expect my fitter to let me hit all the lofts and different weight positions on the launch monitor, how else would you know if the settings are optimal?

To be honest, it wasn't a real fitting. They didn't have a demo in that model, so he just had me hit one off the rack that still had all the plastic wrap around the head. He didn't offer to take it off to make any adjustments. I didn't have very high expectations going in, and there wasn't any charge for the fitting, so I can't complain too much. I was just happy I could find a place with a real launch monitor.

[Pretzel]

10 hours ago, 808hacker said:

Wait, are you saying if I know I use a stiff shaft, 70g, mid-flex point, the brand or cost doesn't matter? Why are there huge differences in the prices of shafts? I was under the impression that the shafts do matter a lot and even with similar "specs" still vary widely when tested? Or are you saying once a shaft has been tested and spec'ed, then it doesn't matter what brand you use or how much you pay, as long as the new shaft "tests" close? The key being that you test/spec the shaft rather than just go by printed specs alone.

Thanks!

If you have two shafts with a near identical bend profile (bend profile, not flex point and stiffness) you will obtain performance that is virtually identical as well. If the shafts behave the same, it doesn't matter what brand is on the sticker.

The primary thing a really expensive shaft will give you over a cheaper one is feel. They design a shaft to feel good and have a given bend profile, and don't care if it's expensive to make (to a point) since it will cost $350 anyways. Performance between two shafts with the same specs and bend profiles will remain the same, but the materials used and construction techniques may affect whether or not it feels like rebar.

[saevel25]

10 hours ago, 808hacker said:

I don't know of many casual players that maintain the same shaft between driver changes. Also, just because a shaft is "stiff" and around the same weight and "kick point"/bend doesn't mean it feels the same.

In fact, I don't think I ever met someone that bought a new driver that maintained the same shaft - "someone" being a casual weekend player.

I don't keep driver shafts between drivers. Why should I? If I buy a new driver I rather get fit for that driver and have a shaft that matches the profile of that driver. In the end, putting an older golf shaft in a newer driver might just not work well. 

10 hours ago, 808hacker said:

Honestly, how many of you have heard your friends say they got 10 yards more per driver upgrade, yet when you play with them, they still hit it the same distance. 3 driver upgrades and they should be 30 yards longer.

None. 

10 hours ago, 808hacker said:

Wait, are you saying if I know I use a stiff shaft, 70g, mid-flex point, the brand or cost doesn't matter?

Nope. It can matter. Radial symmetry matters. Meaning the way the shaft is aligned can influence how it bends. Oriented some ways it can bend more or less than others. More expensive drivers tend to maintain high level of radial symmetry making them good for golf clubs what are adjustable. 

Another situation is feel for those with higher swing speeds It's easy to make a softer bendier golf shaft feel soft. If you take an 80 gram x-stiff golf shaft, it's hard to make that shaft feel soft. More expensive clubs can provide this. 

10 hours ago, 808hacker said:

I was under the impression that the shafts do matter a lot and even with similar "specs" still vary widely when tested? 

Depends on the make and model you are testing. If both shafts have similar bend profiles then they will perform very similarly. Even if one costs $200 more.