To Search or not to Search?

[DaveP043]

5 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

What I've done in situations where I've already hit a good provisional is I go over to the area where my ball is and I look only at the portions of that area where I might be able to play it, or get a decent look after an unplayable drop.  If there is a patch of bushes where it's obvious that the ball wouldn't be playable (and there isn't a good spot to drop near it) then I'm not going to go rooting around in there, because I'm not helping my cause.  But, yeah, I certainly wouldn't abandon the search before it started because you never know.

A golf buddy once told me "I only look for my ball in places where I want to find it."  He didn't waste time looking OB, or in the briar patch, or any of the other nasty places.

[Big C]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

So I went back to the original quote, and I'm wondering what kind of idiot your opponent was.  You're on the green, probably a 70 or 80% chance to make par, and he's making bogey.  And he CHOOSES to eliminate any chance of finding his ball in a playable location and possibly making par.  If I'm the opponent, I'm the one walking along the tree line, hoping to find my ball.  If I find it in a bad place, well I've lost virtually nothing.  If I find it and can play it, I've given myself a better chance to tie the hole, and a slim chance to win it. 

 

12 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

LOL, agreed ... rest assured, though, because I'm pretty sure he said it was a hypothetical scenario and not a real opponent. 

 

I'm going to disagree with both of you on this point. If my opponent in the scenario above says, "I don't want to look," I'm going to respect his wishes as I indicated previously. But he can't have it both ways. If he says "I don't want to look" and then goes and gives a quick search in the "best case scenario" terrain, you better believe, I'm following him for a much more thorough inspection. 

For the premise of this question to make sense, you have to accept that the expected score from the unknown wooded area is >4. Of course there is a chance a lower score could be made, but that absent any concrete information about the ball's final whereabouts, the opponent would chose to take his bogey 4 and run every time.

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, Big C said:

For the premise of this question to make sense, you have to accept that the expected score from the unknown wooded area is >4. Of course there is a chance a lower score could be made, but that absent any concrete information about the ball's final whereabouts, the opponent would chose to take his bogey 4 and run every time.

I'd agree in stroke play, I'd take the 4 and run.  Finding the ball could bring 5 or more into play.  In match play, with you on the green, I have to believe I have a very limited chance to halve the hole with a 4 on my provisional, and losing the hole is highly probable.  I'd take a chance and look for the original in the hopes of increasing my odds of a half.  If I find it in a bad place, I've basically lost nothing.  

Of course, none of this goes to the original issue of whether a player should look for a ball after his opponent/FC has decided to play the provisional instead.  In my opinion, a quick look at the edges of the trouble is appropriate and acceptable, others think that even that level of effort is out of line.  I can live with differences of opinion like that.  Cheers 

[DrvFrShow]

You see, this discussion is why if I blast my tee shot about 30 yds into some thick woods, I don't call the next shot a provisional ball. I re-tee use a 4 iron and make sure I get the next ball in the short stuff. I don't want to be forced into playing the original ball. Having already sliced my driver badly, there is a good chance that I could do it again considering I haven't worked out the problem. 

Also calling the second ball a provisional doesn't get me out of trouble if I peel that one into the woods. The strokes add up if that one is lost, and if that one is found in terrible condition, we could be looking at a 16.

Under rule 27-2: If a provisional ball played under Rule 27-2a might be lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional ball. If another provisional ball is played, it bears the same relationship to the previous provisional ball as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball.

Now if the first ball is possibly lost in rough, it's a different story. I'll play a provisional.

In match play, if I slice two drives deep into the woods we're moving onto the next hole.

In stroke play, I'm hitting a 4 iron for the second ball.

[iacas]

51 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd agree in stroke play, I'd take the 4 and run.  Finding the ball could bring 5 or more into play.  In match play, with you on the green, I have to believe I have a very limited chance to halve the hole with a 4 on my provisional, and losing the hole is highly probable.  I'd take a chance and look for the original in the hopes of increasing my odds of a half.  If I find it in a bad place, I've basically lost nothing.  

Finding it in even a bad place doesn't guarantee a 5+.

No, you might not be able to hit it onto the green, but there are a number of other scenarios possible:

• Chip out sideways, and chip in. 3.
• Chip out sideways, and chip to gimme range. 4.
• Declare it unplayable, drop two club lengths away, hit it on the green. 4 or 5. Or chip it in (3).
• Declare it unplayable, drop it on a line away from the hole (unlikely in this scenario but if it was a patch of bushes or something, quite possible). 3, 4, or 5 are possible..
• Declare it unplayable and re-hit from the last location. 3, 4, or 5 are possible.

TWO strokes is a strong penalty.

Now, the OP said he hit it to a foot, so that changes things. If he hit his provisional to a) 20 feet. b) 40 feet. c) the greenside bunker, d) greenside rough in a tricky lie. e) etc. That all changes the math and the likelihoods.

Everyone here was mostly responding to the OP, but let's not get so carried away (to all, not Dave per se) that we pretend it's always best to avoid finding your ball if it's in a bad spot. Often it's not. It's often an advantage to find your ball because you're not immediately docked two strokes without getting the chance to advance your ball.

[turtleback]

Why does the guy not want you to look?  Because he thinks that is to his advantage.

Why does the playing partner want to look?  Because he thinks it is to his advantage.

The fact that a player is not REQUIRED to search for his ball does not translate, IMO, into the player getting to decide whether someone else searches.  By not searching the player is essentially gaming the rules in an allowable way.  By searching, the playing partner is essentially gaming the rules in an allowable way.

Now, if he says don't search BEFORE he hits the provisional stiff, then I would probably see it differently (but then, of course, he would not have declared a provisional he would have just gone stroke and distance).  But to say don't search AFTER he knows he has hit the provisional stiff is MORE of a dick move than his playing partner searching, IMO.  But as it is he wants to have it both ways.  He wants to hit the provisional and THEN decide whether to search or not.  

He would certainly have wanted you to search if he hit his provisional out of bounds.  But he hit it in a nice place.  WHY that should determine whether the ball is searched for or not is beyond me.  Search or don't search, depending on how I hit my provisional just does not work well for me.

[DaveP043]

Spoiler

Deciding what to do about searching for your provisional is off of the original topic, so I'll add this in the box. I agree completely with the previous post by  @iacas .  My choice to "take the 4 and run" was based on having a virtually guaranteed 4.  If I'm 20 feet away, a 2-putt for 5 is pretty likely.  If my provisional is in a bunker, 5 would be good, and 6 is pretty likely.  Worst case, my provisional, and maybe even additional provisionals, are also in the same woods, as @DrvFrShow talks about.  Each of these situations would increase my interest in finding the original ball.  Sometimes, finding the original in the worst possible location, taking an unplayable lie, and going back to the tee and taking my chances on yet another tee shot as my third would be an improvement over playing the provisional I've already hit.

[Golfingdad]

5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd agree in stroke play, I'd take the 4 and run.  Finding the ball could bring 5 or more into play.  In match play, with you on the green, I have to believe I have a very limited chance to halve the hole with a 4 on my provisional, and losing the hole is highly probable.  I'd take a chance and look for the original in the hopes of increasing my odds of a half.  If I find it in a bad place, I've basically lost nothing.  

Of course, none of this goes to the original issue of whether a player should look for a ball after his opponent/FC has decided to play the provisional instead.  In my opinion, a quick look at the edges of the trouble is appropriate and acceptable, others think that even that level of effort is out of line.  I can live with differences of opinion like that.  Cheers 

Right.  In match play his chances of winning the hole on his provisional are zero and his chances of even halving the hole are no better than 1 in 5 or so.  So searching for the ball only risks losing that <20% chance while bringing back the possibility of a par.  That's a risk worth taking.  Heck, it's not even really a risk, because I think I'm being pretty generous in giving him a 20% chance of halving the hole - it's probably less than that.

[Golfingdad]

10 minutes ago, turtleback said:

But to say don't search AFTER he knows he has hit the provisional stiff is MORE of a dick move than his playing partner searching, IMO.

Even though I voted in the "no" category, I tend to agree with this.  There have been situations where I've started a search for a ball then come to realize that it's not going to be found in a place I desire, but all I'll say is something like "eh, it's gone, I'll just go play my provisional.  Don't worry about it."

I can't imagine actually telling or demanding something of a playing partner like that.  It just sounds rude.  If I was in OP's situation, I'd make my cursory search in the areas I'd like to find it (if any exist) and then verbally abandon MY search, hoping that he'd take the hint that I'd prefer him to do the same.

On the opposite side of the coin, another reason I'd respect the guys wishes after he asked me not to look is because there is no need.  I have the hole won even if I don't find his ball because I have no business 3-putting from 40 feet.  And that little bit of goodwill might be returned on another hole later.

[Fourputt]

I see it as if I'm the OP's opponent and I have 2 putts to win the hole, then I'm right where I want to be.  I don't need to be "that guy" and possibly create bad feelings and an uncomfortable atmosphere for the remainder of the round.

Maybe some of you "Yes" voters aren't too confident in your putting? 

[jamo]

Is it naive to say that even if I do give the other guy's ball a look around, the last thing on my mind would be trying to screw him?

[iacas]

26 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Maybe some of you "Yes" voters aren't too confident in your putting? 

Maybe some of them are, Rick, but I'm not among any group of people who isn't confident in my putting.

[Golfingdad]

10 minutes ago, jamo said:

Is it naive to say that even if I do give the other guy's ball a look around, the last thing on my mind would be trying to screw him?

No.  I know you well enough to believe you there. :)

However, it would be naive to think that your opponent, assuming he's a relative stranger, would believe you when you say that to him. 

[Joe from MD]

Opponent is the key word in the question. So why wouldn't you look for their ball. 

[Golfingdad]

17 minutes ago, Joe from MD said:

So why wouldn't you look for their ball. 

There are many, many answers to that question already in this thread.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, jamo said:

Is it naive to say that even if I do give the other guy's ball a look around, the last thing on my mind would be trying to screw him?

Its not naive, its the way many of us are.  I'm only looking in the convenient places, around the edge of the woods, and I look because I always look for a ball in play.  To be honest, I'm not sure I could walk past the woods without taking a glance over there.  If anything, I'm more likely to give him a chance to do better than his "guaranteed 4".  And on the flip side, I can't say I've ever jumped to the conclusion that my opponent was doing anything to try to screw me, I just don't think that way.

[Golfingdad]

7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

And on the flip side, I can't say I've ever jumped to the conclusion that my opponent was doing anything to try to screw me, I just don't think that way.

Spoiler

Agree 100%.  My brother started playing in some Golf Channel Am events at the same time I did a few years back.  After many of the tournaments, he would have a negative story about an FC.  One that I remember in particular is that he found his ball just before his 5 minutes were up and he found it right where his FC was supposedly helping him look.  He convinced himself that the FC must have seen it and purposely didn't say anything.  I have never had an experience remotely like that.  I've yet to play against somebody who I felt wasn't also "rooting" for his playing partners like we were also rooting for him. 

 

[turtleback]

18 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Its not naive, its the way many of us are.  I'm only looking in the convenient places, around the edge of the woods, and I look because I always look for a ball in play.  To be honest, I'm not sure I could walk past the woods without taking a glance over there.  If anything, I'm more likely to give him a chance to do better than his "guaranteed 4".  And on the flip side, I can't say I've ever jumped to the conclusion that my opponent was doing anything to try to screw me, I just don't think that way.

See, here is the thing.  The only time this really arises is when the provisional is very very very good.  The reality is that I would always look for my own ball even if I pured the provisional down the middle because there just aren't that many places so bad (Kevin Na notwithstanding) that I can't get to where my provisional is with 2 more shots.  

So again, I say, given the unusual circumstances that give rise to the player asking for his ball not be searched for I still say he is being the dick, because he would have wanted his ball searched for if he had dunked the provisional, or hit even a mediocre shot.  I know that FOR A FACT because otherwise he would not have declared it a provisional in the first place.  The rules say you have to declare a provisional.  When the opponent says not to look, what he really is doing is asking you to defacto ignore his provisional declaration and treat it as if he hit under 27-1 when he actually hit under 27-2.  It may not violate the rules, but it sure is gaming them.