Hit it Over the Ditch or Lay up Short?

[DrvFrShow]

4 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Me too, that ditch is just about perfect spot to catch my driver.

How do hit the ball so far, 220-240 for a lady is really far unless your a pro and would hit a 5 or 6 iron another 170-180 but carry a 20.8 index? That's almost as far as I hit a 5 or 6 iron?

I've been through this exercise before. I have a set of Cobra BioCell irons. The lofts on them are strong. I had a discussion with a pro at the driving range who was in disbelief as well. So I hit my 6 iron, and showed him my 6 iron. It's same loft and length as his Ping i20 4 iron. So there you go on the lofts. It's a 4 iron with a 6 stamped on it. My 4 iron is a 2 iron with a 4 stamped on it. My 8 iron is a 6 iron with an 8 stamped on it. But Cobra did a great job of lowering the CoG so that I can get the ball up in the air.

And unlike most people I've stayed very fit over the years. I played in women's basketball leagues up into my 50s. I still strength train and my workouts are not with "play time" weights. I know how to work fast twitch muscles.

Now why am I carrying a 20.8 index?  I blame my former home course. There's a lot of water and it's all on the right. This is my official GHIN HC. 1) Better accuracy off the tee - this can save me 5 strokes per round. 2) One can make decent contact, but lack accuracy. (from 140 yds and in - 3 strokes) 3) I play aggressive and try shots I have no business trying. This is where I try to make up distance resulting from having to chip out on the par 5 (2 strokes) 4) my putting. (3 strokes) 

Improvements in those areas would bring me to a 7 HC.

 

[JonMA1]

7 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Here's where I take a little bit of issue.  I would really like a birdie on every hole I play, I'll accept par on every hole I play, but what I REALLY want is to shoot the lowest score I can on every hole.  That means making smart choices on every shot, based on the lie, the distances, the hazards, and based on my understanding of my own game.  The idea that I'd "really like a birdie" should never come into my decision making, unless its late in a match play round and I need a win on that hole.  Even in match play, its almost always best to keep your ball in play, and force your opponent to perform, rather than take a risk, take a penalty stroke, and make it easy on him.   

Having said all that, I can't carry that ditch very often, I'd make sure I was short, get it at least close to the green, and make my par that way.  If I make birdie, great, but I only start thinking birdie after I've hit my second shot.

I don't compete very often (like never) so this is more of a question than an argument. Would there ever be a situation in a competition when you might want to take a bit more risk than normal? 

[Dave2512]

16 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I don't compete very often (like never) so this is more of a question than an argument. Would there ever be a situation in a competition when you might want to take a bit more risk than normal? 

Only if you're behind and there is no other way to win, tie or halve. Two down and the final hole is a reachable par 5 with trouble type of scenario. Otherwise usually best to be patient. The good shots and resulting scores will come and others will make mistakes.

In casual golf I don't take silly chances because bad holes are a bummer. Usually when we have these type of threads it's started by a higher handicap golfer. No sin in that but they don't understand what it's like to have an entire round botched by one bad hole unless they make a quad or worse. Even then the disparity of their rounds so great it's common  place.

Better players are better because not only are they more skilled they game plan better. They tend to track stats, understand their limitations and understand where they need to be at certain points on the course to keep scores within their usual range. I try to keep it to 3-5 over a side, one over every three holes is the plan.

My best rounds are never defined by one hero shot it's groups of pars through sections of the course and there are times I play for bogey. It's tough to do when I make a double or worse doing something dumb, like trying to carry a ditch on a hole where I rarely hit GIR anyway. Half the time I'm not even trying to hit a green on a hole like that. I hit my approach to a spot that gives me the best angle to play a simple short shot thinking I can leave myself a makeable 15' or less putt.

 

[vangator]

3 hours ago, 9wood said:

Do you have any knowledge of the Volvik DS 77 white balls. Are they inferior to the S3?

Indeed it does. But it's not impossible. I am determined to get up and down in two on that hole at least once this year with the aid of some new clubs and 2 perfect shots. Last time I played that hole back on Dec 14th of last year when the temperature was in the 50's I almost got on in two using a 3 wood to drive and a 3 iron on my second shot. Stay tuned.

I picked up a few DS 77 from the dollar bin at the flea market.  I thought they'd be good for a scramble coming up.  They are very hard.  The 77 supposedly stands for the compression, but I thought they felt much harder.  Didn't feel good off the driver.  No spin.  After a few holes, as a practice shot, I lined it up a blasted it into the weeds.

One good thing about the approach is that there doesn't look like much trouble at all.

Edited March 4, 2016 by vangator

[vangator]

Hey, I finally figured out how to insert an image.  The edit session from my previous post timed out before I figured it out.  Now I need to figure out how to add arrows and such.

The large tree at the center top (1/2 inch down) is 225 yards from the ditch.  It's 20 yards to carry.  If you don't make it across, start digging out another ball.  Mangrove swamp on the right.  Snake infested rough on the left.  Fairway has fairly large slope to the water.  Hole is 360 from the white.  400 from the back.  So from the white, the smart play is to layup with 140 - 150 in.  Layup needs to be centered or the trees on each side of the layup can block you.

This is probably not as tough as 9woods hole.

[JonMA1]

48 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Only if you're behind and there is no other way to win, tie or halve. Two down and the final hole is a reachable par 5 with trouble type of scenario. Otherwise usually best to be patient. The good shots and resulting scores will come and others will make mistakes.

That's the kind of scenario I was thinking of.

49 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Better players are better because not only are they more skilled they game plan better. They tend to track stats, understand their limitations and understand where they need to be at certain points on the course to keep scores within their usual range. I try to keep it to 3-5 over a side, one over every three holes is the plan.

I think this is a generalization. I'm a poorer player because my mechanics are poor.

Most decision-making on the course is pretty easy. I might make a strategic mistake on a course I'm unfamiliar with, but if I know the course, it's all about strengths and weaknesses. I play the tees that suit my distances and take my medicine when I get in trouble - same as you.

That's not to say I don't take risks, but not without knowing I can live with the consequences. I can't remember the last time I missed a shot and asked "what was I thinking?".  

As for patience, I doubt there's little difference other than a bogey for me is like a par for you. I don't go out expecting my next round to be much different than the last.

I'm still learning the game where you likely have been playing for many years. So yeah, I will likely look back and realize some of my thinking was flawed. But I don't know that it's as bad as you may think it is.

[vangator]

The other layup hole I mentioned.  509 yard par 5.  Blue line is conservative 3 shot.  Red line is aggressive (for me anyway).  From tee to water is about 260 slightly down hill, leaving 249 to the green.  If you try to go for it in two (I never do from this angle) there's lots of trouble if you don't hit 2nd shot long and straight.  I lay up to about 100 and hit wedge in.  Good target golf hole.  Fairway by 3rd blue arrow is maybe 15 yards wide.

The red line is the driver up on adjacent tee box.  No OB.  Tee box is quite elevated, so a big drive can leave a 200 yard shot down to the green at a much more friendly approach angle.  Maybe 170 yard carry for the water by the green.  I know that green side trap by it's first name.   If the tee is not clear, I go the blue route.

Sorry for the 3 posts in a row, but I kept getting timed out.

Edited March 4, 2016 by vangator

[9wood]

2 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

Usually when we have these type of threads it's started by a higher handicap golfer. No sin in that but they don't understand what it's like to have an entire round botched by one bad hole

 

The main purpose I play golf is for relaxation and fun. If I get more focused on my score then golfing becomes less relaxing and less enjoyable to me. I have played with too many golfers who have a good time only if they are scoring good. But when they are scoring poorly they aren't happy, neither are they enjoyable to play golf with. They suck the sunshine out of the golf outing. I am not saying everyone is like that, just that too many are.

[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

I don't compete very often (like never) so this is more of a question than an argument. Would there ever be a situation in a competition when you might want to take a bit more risk than normal? 

I think others have said it, but I take bigger risks  in match-play situations.   I don't necessarily take risks off the tee though.  If my opponent is on the green, that's when I might take a shot at a flag, when otherwise I'd be playing a safer shot to the middle of the green.  I might take a risk on a long carry.  I might take a short-game risk if I know I need to make a par for a tie, or to win a hole late in the round.  If I'm on the way to losing a hole, I've lost very little if I risk and fail, the next hole is a fresh challenge.

Until my opponent is on the green, I usually don't think about taking much of a risk.  Its important to remember that golfers at every level make mistakes.  I hate to take a really low-percentage shot and fail, and give my opponent the chance to play really safe for an easy win on a hole.  If I keep my ball in play, I keep the pressure on him, I force him to perform if he wants to win.  

[chilepepper]

For my game I ve slowly learned the value of course management. If I'm hitting driver on the screws consistently that day or week I'll take more risks, sometimes. Otherwise I've found that choosing the appropriate club, shorter, on many holes that leaves me a 7 iron Or less into the green pays off in more GIR, less OB = better scores. 

  

[djfajt71]

As my average drive is around 210-225 with roll, I'd be laying up, whether I want to or not!

[paininthenuts]

On 3/2/2016 at 6:42 PM, 9wood said:

I think this might be interesting. Here's a scenario. You're about to tee off on a 412 yd. par 4 hole and you would really like a birdie, yet you will settle for par if you have to. You know if you get off a really good tee shot that your chances of scoring well just increased. Between 220 and 230 yards out there is drainage ditch that runs all the way across the fairway and beyond. So here's the question. Would you try to drive across the ditch, or hit short of the ditch and be left with about 200 yds still to go for your second shot?

We have a very similar hole at my local club (the 9th). It's actually 374 yds, and a large pond in front of a two tier green. We affectionately call it "armageddon". To go for the green on the second shot unless you are withing 100 yards of it takes some bottle.  This hole is rarely parred, and in fact I don't know of anyone who has birdied it. I would say that 90% of the day players chose to lay up, and take a single bogie, which is still quite difficult. 

[BuckeyeNut]

On 3/2/2016 at 0:42 PM, 9wood said:

I think this might be interesting. Here's a scenario. You're about to tee off on a 412 yd. par 4 hole and you would really like a birdie, yet you will settle for par if you have to. You know if you get off a really good tee shot that your chances of scoring well just increased. Between 220 and 230 yards out there is drainage ditch that runs all the way across the fairway and beyond. So here's the question. Would you try to drive across the ditch, or hit short of the ditch and be left with about 200 yds still to go for your second shot?

Know your game!   It depends on if you can easily carry 230yds!   For me, it's a no brainer......I carry the ditch. 

[Lihu]

19 hours ago, vangator said:

The other layup hole I mentioned.  509 yard par 5.  Blue line is conservative 3 shot.  Red line is aggressive (for me anyway).  From tee to water is about 260 slightly down hill, leaving 249 to the green.  If you try to go for it in two (I never do from this angle) there's lots of trouble if you don't hit 2nd shot long and straight.  I lay up to about 100 and hit wedge in.  Good target golf hole.  Fairway by 3rd blue arrow is maybe 15 yards wide.

The red line is the driver up on adjacent tee box.  No OB.  Tee box is quite elevated, so a big Huge drive can leave a 200 yard shot down to the green at a much more friendly approach angle.  Maybe 170 yard carry for the water by the green.  I know that green side trap by it's first name.   If the tee is not clear, I go the blue route.

Sorry for the 3 posts in a row, but I kept getting timed out.

 

If you follow the red line you only need like a 380 yard drive, then just pitch that last 150 yard approach (not 200) over water onto the green. Actually, it looks longer than the standard path. I like the optimism in making that first red shot.

 

[bkuehn1952]

4 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

... it takes some bottle.  

Love that expression.  If I said it to one of my friends they would wonder what the heck I was saying.

[9wood]

2 hours ago, BuckeyeNut said:

Know your game!   It depends on if you can easily carry 230yds!   For me, it's a no brainer......I carry the ditch. 

The ditch has been more accurately calculated to be about 240 yds out, not the 230 as was previously stated

[SavvySwede]

6 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

We have a very similar hole at my local club (the 9th). It's actually 374 yds, and a large pond in front of a two tier green. We affectionately call it "armageddon". To go for the green on the second shot unless you are withing 100 yards of it takes some bottle.  This hole is rarely parred, and in fact I don't know of anyone who has birdied it. I would say that 90% of the day players chose to lay up, and take a single bogie, which is still quite difficult. 

What's so bad about a pond in front of the green when you have a fairly short second shot?

[Lihu]

57 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

What's so bad about a pond in front of the green when you have a fairly short second shot?

He's currently a 28 handicap.