Hit it Over the Ditch or Lay up Short?

[Big Lex]

The only way I lay up is if I'm hitting my driver poorly that day, or I am in some kind of match where I think that I absolutely cannot make a double bogey. In other words, if an "easy" bogey is all I need, I will lay up. My driver carry on a solid hit is anywhere from 240-260, but I still have enough chance of a mis-hit into the ditch that I have to consider the situation. Obviously if I need the birdie there is no other chance but to hit over the ditch. My likelihood of a birdie from 130-155 is much higher than from 200-220. 

[9wood]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Why even risk getting into the ditch?

 

Because if you drive it over the ditch and then get a good up and down on your second shot, then make the putt for a birdie you'll have something to talk about when you arrive at the 19th hole

[Lihu]

22 minutes ago, 9wood said:

Because if you drive it over the ditch and then get a good up and down on your second shot, then make the putt for a birdie you'll have something to talk about when you arrive at the 19th hole

That's a big if, and I'm not going to "guess".

So, you are arguing risking a potential bogey from a lateral penalty versus possibly making that same birdie with my second hybrid or 6i shot without any real risk? See below for my explanation and analysis of the situation based upon my game.

I agree that it is tantalizing, and if I were to see the actual hole I might pretty much just "grip it and rip it" with no stakes involved. However, I just don't like the odds of dropping in the ditch being more than let's say 60% or so? There is a high density of shots between 240 yards and 260 in the plot below, so even though I have a lot of shots that brings my median to 260 yards the odds are not really in my favor of getting a lower score using driver nor 3W for that matter as there is a reasonable density of shots between 231 and 250-ish.

If you look at my hybrid statistics I have a median distance of 208 yards. Two easy shots could get me to the green. The last 5 or 6 shots I've made with the hybrid approaches have left me on the green or close to it from over 200 yards. One 70+ foot eagle putt, and one 6 foot birdie putt and a bunch close to the green. Reference my last few GG rounds.

So, as I am not a low single digit player and my hybrid is a pretty solid 200 yard club, I see no reason to risk begin in the ditch.

I just used the rough statistics I gathered with GG rather than "hand waving" to make my decision.

[Dave2512]

22 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

You're preaching to the choir about LSW. I ordered my copy before the book was released and it has helped my game tremendously. And we both agree that it's important to know your capabilities and make proper decisions based on that knowledge.

As for threads like this, it's a golf forum. There are always going to be threads that seem mundane to others. I actually enjoy it when someone posts a hole and asks "how would you play it?". While this scenario didn't seem to offer much in the way of decision-making, I've seen others which do.

I don't take these posts as "what should I do?" type questions. More of "what would you do?". In the end, it's just interesting to see how people respond and what their reasoning or philosophies are. If anyone can learn something from reading them, then I'm not sure what the issue is.

You seem to think I am critical of this thread, I am not and I don't have an issue. I agree discussing golf is fun enjoy. But that is all there is to gain from asking golfers of different abilities how they would do anything, which is fine.

[JonMA1]

5 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

You seem to think I am critical of this thread, I am not and I don't have an issue. I agree discussing golf is fun enjoy. But that is all there is to gain from asking golfers of different abilities how they would do anything, which is fine.

I sometimes become a bit too argumentative in these threads and for that I apologize.

[SavvySwede]

9 hours ago, 9wood said:

Earlier on someone stated that even if you were to just barely drive across the ditch you wouldn't gain much. I would have to respectfully disagree with that statement because if you did in fact drive over the ditch, even just barely you most likely would get some decent roll added to the end of your drive which means your second shot would now be around 140 yds or so instead of 190 or so yards you would have by laying up short of the ditch. That's a 50 yd or more difference.

The ditch is only a couple yards wide and you're not going to be getting much roll at all because a drainage ditch will keep the surrounding area wet and soft.

[saevel25]

I had to cross a creek today. I crossed it, but I ended up in it when my ball cut to far right to the part of the creek that turns parallel to the fairway.  

On a side note, I hate this golf hole a lot.  

[9wood]

On March 4, 2016 at 7:23 PM, vangator said:

I picked up a few DS 77 from the dollar bin at the flea market.  I thought they'd be good for a scramble coming up.  They are very hard.  The 77 supposedly stands for the compression, but I thought they felt much harder.  Didn't feel good off the driver.  No spin.  

I obtained a sleeve of DS 77's and took them out for a test drive today. I agree with you that they didn't feel good off the driver. They are advertised as being soft and are recommended for those with swing speeds between 70 - 90 mph. They felt like rocks to me.

[vangator]

2 hours ago, 9wood said:

I obtained a sleeve of DS 77's and took them out for a test drive today. I agree with you that they didn't feel good off the driver. They are advertised as being soft and are recommended for those with swing speeds between 70 - 90 mph. They felt like rocks to me.

Yep.  I'm a Volvik fan as you know, but not the DS 77s.  I don't like the Pro Bismuth either.  Just expensive Pinnacles.

I noticed the Volvik website has the S3 in orange and the Vibe in yellow.  I want them!  I still have a dozen Vista iV and S3 though.  I'm good for about 5 years with those.  The Vista iV is a great ball except for those little pitches and chips want to check up.  The S3 will check up better.But even they don't check as well as some real soft balls on chips.  Can't have everything.

Funny the S3 Orange still says White Color on the box.  They'll have to fix that.

[Valleygolfer]

I would have to base my decision on how well I am hitting my driver. I don't think that the ditch is of concern here since it's perpendicular to the hole. I run into situations where the drainage ditch run diagonal about 15 degrees causing a variance in distance or one side has a pond. Seems like I mentally can't keep myself from hitting the long side.  Generally I lay up.

[paininthenuts]

LOL, the other day I made a post suggesting it's better to lay it up, and described the 9th hole at my local club. It is a very difficult hole with a raised two tier green that sits behind a large pond. Well since that post I played the hole once again. I hit a really good drive and decided to go for it in two. I took my 5 iron out and put the ball within 15 feet of the pin. I missed the birdie, but got the par. 

[gregsandiego]

On 3/2/2016 at 1:34 PM, 9wood said:

The ditch is about 15 or so feet wide and about 7 or so feet deep. It is filled with scrub brush and water. 

Are you sure this isn't hole #5 at Mission Trails in San Diego? 

Few people emerge without a lost ball.

[ppine]

Moe Norman used to talk about hitting a drive so straight that he could bounce the ball over a bridge.

[9wood]

4 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

Are you sure this isn't hole #5 at Mission Trails in San Diego? 

I am absolutely certain

[vangator]

23 hours ago, vangator said:

Yep.  I'm a Volvik fan as you know, but not the DS 77s.  I don't like the Pro Bismuth either.  Just expensive Pinnacles.

I noticed the Volvik website has the S3 in orange and the Vibe in yellow.  I want them!  I still have a dozen Vista iV and S3 though.  I'm good for about 5 years with those.  The Vista iV is a great ball except for those little pitches and chips want to check up.  The S3 will check up better.But even they don't check as well as some real soft balls on chips.  Can't have everything.

Funny the S3 Orange still says White Color on the box.  They'll have to fix that.

Need to correct the above.

The Vista iV is a great ball except for those little pitches and chips do NOT want to check up. 

Also, I wanted to post a pic of a hole I played in a tourney many years ago but it looks as though the course is gone.  Plowed under as a corn field or something. 

Anyway, It was the 18th hole.  Long drive hole.  500 yard par 5 with a slight dog leg left.  Fifty foot elevated tee.  There was a crick running diagonally across the fairway.  A sign on the tee box said 235 to carry crick on the right, 265 to carry crick on the left.  Left side was more direct line to hole.  My buddy, who won the tourney, decided to not risk the hazard and laid up.  Since I was sucking big time, I decided to go for it since the long drive flag was across the crick.  I took the biggest, pissed off swing I could and not only flew the crick, I flew past the long drive marker (probably at 300).  When I got to my ball, it was nearly resting on a sprinkler head that read 125 yards (375 yard drive).  That was / is the longest drive I've ever hit.  Back when I wore a younger man's clothes.

Did you ever think you'd get 9 pages (and counting) on this thread?

Edited March 9, 2016 by vangator

[9wood]

42 minutes ago, vangator said:

Did you ever think you'd get 9 pages (and counting) on this thread?

Didn't really know what to expect but it's been very interesting reading all the replies.

I have been checking out a course in my area which I have never played before. I plan on playing it this year mainly because it looks like it has a couple of challenging holes in which you have to decide to play a safe shot or take a risk shot. Once I play this course, I'm thinking there might be another thread forthcoming of a different hole on a different course for people to respond to. I'm not a big fan of courses that don't provide challenging opportunities. There is a course nearby that I play once in a great while, only because it's cheap. Believe it or not, the course doesn't have a single hazard other than if you badly slice or hook your ball into the farmers fields or woods but it does have some long par fives. 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by 9wood

[Lihu]

27 minutes ago, 9wood said:

Didn't really know what to expect but it's been very interesting reading all the replies.

I have been checking out a course in my area which I have never played before. I plan on playing it this year mainly because it looks like it has a couple of challenging holes in which you have to decide to play a safe shot or take a risk shot. Once I play this course, I'm thinking there might be another thread forthcoming of a different hole on a different course for people to respond to. I'm not a big fan of courses that don't provide challenging opportunities. There is a course nearby that I play once in a great while, only because it's cheap. Believe it or not, the course doesn't have a single hazard other than if you badly slice or hook your ball into the farmers fields or woods but it does have some long par fives. 

This is my favorite course so far (played the blues and my playing partner played the white "players tees"), and it offers a lot of challenging holes some with forced carries as the one in the OP. I'm hoping to go there in two weeks with my son.

http://www.tierrarejadagolf.com/

 

Just don't forget to "Tee it forward", challenge is nice but not at the cost of the golfers behind you.

 

 

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, 9wood said:

Have you ever played this course before? If so what in your opinion is the most challenging hole?

Played it twice and reviewed it the first time I played there.

All the holes were pretty challenging. You pretty much have to hit straight.

The one with the longest forced carry was hole 6 which is normally a 202 yard forced carry from where I played. Unfortunately I pulled my drive and ended up on the 220 to 230 yard forced carry part which I barely squeaked by with 230 yards then rolled up the hill to about 250 yards allowing me to cut the hole into a short 350 yard par 4 from the designed 385 yards (actually 412 yards that day because the blue tees were closed and combined with the blacks so the blues box could heal for the weekend). Lucky shortcut.

I don't really remember any hole that was that much harder than the rest. Wasn't an easy course by any means. I think I shot in the 90s from basically the tips.

The main thing is that my partner could play from the new players tees from 5500 yards or less. The whites in the scorecard are not burgundy tees. Blues and blacks remained the same.

The second time I played there the blue tees were all in the blue tee positions and shot in the mid to high 80s. I love that place.

Here are some others I really enjoy in my area with similar forced carries.

http://www.lostcanyons.com/golf/sky-course/

http://www.hiddenvalleygolf.com/

These are the most challenging courses and I bring extra balls. Most of the other ones you can usually find balls that get into hazards.